Out-crossing GSD with other breeds - Page 8

Hey, I was right.  The attack dogs are here.

Seems that no matter what I say, someone, usually more than one, feels the need to not debate the issue of the day with me.  But rather, they feel the need to either insinuate that I am an idiot, short of grey matter, retarded, or a number of other things.  Yet, they provide little or no actual facts, or substance to their arguments or disagreements.

So, as I have vowed in the past (and yes, I do try and remember my vows, even the marriage ones, but sometimes forget them for a couple of hours), to not feed those unworthy or trolls, or just plain jerks  I am going to ignore the LOL's and such and just move on.  Debating an issue with someone that lowers themselves almost immediately to name calling and insulting remarks, is a losing battle and one can not accomplish anything except make them look like the unarmed debater they are, or just waste a lot of time on the defensive side of the field.

The only one who even attempted thus far to debate in a factual way was VKFGSD, but even he started off by insulting me as he was presenting his case.  Perhaps that is why he thinks that some will think of him as a fool and some have actually called him a fool to his face.  I will give him (?) and ya'll a hint about debating and I will relate it to dogs.

What happens when an alpha male (or alpha female) approaches another alpha male or female, and puts his nose right up to the others nose, with hackles raised?

I'll tell you what.  The hackles on the other alpha male also go up.  It is generally down hill from there.

Now what happens if an alpha male or female, walks up to another wagging its tail?  It generally does not go bad, but instead can go good or more than likely, okay.

When you (anyone wishing to debate with me or anyone else) enter into a discussion or debate with another, do it without insulting them or insinuating that they are an idiot, before you hear their entire presentation.  Then, just maybe, you will be treated like a grown up, and people won't think of you as a fool or jerk.  Go into a discussion with your tail wagging, or at least not with your hackles up. Maybe then, you will have the pleasure of winning a debate.  Resorting to name calling and personal insults, is not winning a debate about a subject.  It is getting rid of your opponent, and is usually done when you are insecure and unsure about your case being able to stand on its own merits.  It doesn't even matter if I do post proof of what I say (even though my history on this site is ALWAYS being able to back up what I say, with proof).  It will either be ignored or will be doubted as a false document or an inefficient translation (the ground work for that is already laid here) or twisted into something like the silliest one of all, when I stated that I was in the Marines and the Navy and it was "put out there" that I was kicked out of the Marines and forced to go to the "lower" Navy.  It does not matter what proof I show or produce, about anything.  You can change my mind but I apparently can not change yours.  That is the difference.  Yes, I have stated many times in the past that I am totally against crossing wolves with GSD's, but I am not so closed minded that I can not entertain the notion as a possibility, if the powers that be, investigate it and decide to give it a shot to save this debilitated breed.

I am through with you on this subject.  On the next subject that comes up, wag your tail and maybe I will give you a piece of my mind and better yours.  I have much research and ideas of my own, that we could have exchanged for your ideas.  But, now it won't be happening.  Read the book as I did and find the info yourselves.  Search the internet concerning already completed wolf/dog crosses, and le

 Search the internet concerning already completed wolf/dog crosses, and learn what the results have been thus far.  In the U.S., the results are disastrous (because it is being done BYB style), but in some other countries, the results are showing much promise.

http://www.grapevine.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm

I will reprint for you here so that you don't even have to go to the link, and I give all respect, credit and rights to the original owner, Ann Dresselhaus.

Subject: AKC German Shepherds are Wolf "Hybrids"/Wolfdogs
by Ann Dresselhaus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3/21/97

All dogs are "wolfdogs". The only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a "pure" wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to "create" the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar events can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd types, and many rarer-breed "dogs". German Shepherds were recently the MOST POPULAR AKC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular working/companion dog!

I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog??
 

l. Since the wolf and the dog are the same species, is there really such an entity as a wolf  "HYBRID".
2. Since all doge are descended from wolves, are not all dogs 'wolfdogs'? - the only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) being the number of generations away from a 'pure' wolf the individual

3. Are we really not just talking about 'recent' wolf crosses (the onus being on us to define 'recent''
 

Many (but not all!) of the dogs we have today resulted from the PRIMARY domestication of the Old World Southern Wolf, a smaller, less pack-oriented animal than the Northern Wolf, the wolf we are most familiar with today and which most of the 'recent' wolf crosses have used. I say MANY dogs, but not all because many of the Northern breeds are the result of a SECONDARY domestication of the result of the primary with the Northern Wolves as 'recent' as 90 years ago (documented in the German Shepherd). The primary happened thousands of years ago, but it is a mistake to think that that was the LAST time wolves were used in dog breeds.

I present the following research for your perusal:

The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to 'create' the breed.

Captain Von Stephanitz, of the German infantry, bought sheep-hearding dogs (many of them field trial winners) from all over Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and bred them together to create his 'ultimate service dog'. He started a registry and stud book. His favorite dog, Hektor, he gave the first # (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to every decent bitch around, and all the dogs originally imported to America were proudly traced back to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media sensationalized every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine with the word 'wolf' in it. There were arguements left and right - " Was the Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell?? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was eventually changed back to GSD,
things calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at the top of the 'most popular dog' list shortly after Rin
Tin Tin aired.

In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. Fang@howling.com has a pricey (about $350) original and more may(?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.

Herr Strebel is quoted in "The Alsatian Wolf-Dog", by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomena which are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolf's blood is lost in a 'domesticated' breed.

In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian Journal, Chasse et Peche (The Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE ALSATIAN". (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France).

Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.)

In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF Crosses.".

(Note: fang@howling.com OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books. I have interlibrary loaned the other old books m

(Note: fang@howling.com OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books. I have interlibrary loaned the other old books mentioned and made copies of all the relevant statements.)

So, I ask of you, are (AKC) German Shepherds wolf 'hybrids'?

Ann Dresselhaus
Cedar Rapids, IA

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wdgenes.htm

and from this page:  http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/myths/myths.html

"Genetics
Myth:
Wolfdog hybrids posess confused instincts, their dog genetics  pulling them towards one behavior while their wolf genetics pulls them towards another.
Fact:
This statement alone indicates that this person is completely ignorant of animal behavior.  Although many keep repeating this, it has absolutely no basis in reality.  The "dog genetics" and the wolf genetics are identical.
Frank Antinoro (not Do Right)

From Do Right:  I have a long list of web sites in my "favorites" file, that I could share, concerning the wolf and wolf hybrids called wolf dogs, but they are easy to find through Google, so I won't bother.

I still want it understood that I think it is a bad idea to begin with, however, it is not a silly idea, and would add genetic value for health and a few other things.  But, overall, I do not like the idea for some other reasons and would be glad to share them to a reasonable person.  I have been interested in this subject and considered doing such crosses and have studied this idea for over 15 years, maybe longer.  But decided after all of my studying, that OVERALL it is not a good idea NOW, because of society concerns, legal concerns and insurance concerns.  Some states and locales forbid any dog with any amount of wolf in its make-up, to be kept, and some will take them away from you and they can not be adopted out.  Michigan is one if I remember correctly.  I would hate to be the cause of "put down" dogs.  But again, I am sure that everyone else already knows all the answers, wherefores and whatfores, so no one will ask.

Though you may not be an active proponent of wolfdog crosses the woman you quote (Ann Dresselhaus) is.

A three minute Google search shows all of the myriad boards and organizations that she is actively associated with.

The Wolfdog's Resource  http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/index.html#Articles

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/101Wolfdogs.htm

She has some very interesting opinions on this forum aimed at advocating wolf crosses: http://www.network54.com/Forum/17027/

Her wolfdog temperament test is referenced by this wolfdog breeder: http://www.cottonwoodz.com/

She's also quoted on this website called Wolfdog training:http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/training.htm

I am not saying you have a dog in this hunt but she sure as hell seems to.

Hold on, the Shiloh Shepherd one only quoted her article. Strike that one from the list.

It's not right that she suckers people into thinking she's doing objective science then she turns out to have an agenda.

From your comments, I presume I'm one of the ones that you are painting as an attack dog. Certainly don't think of myself that way. Simply asked for some proof - not an unreasonable request in my book.

1. Proof  that the original German version matches what you are claiming about the original English version and that there were not translation problems

2. Proof of what you are claiming about the original English version

Instead you give us an article written by Ann Dresselhaus 10 years ago. I went to the link and there are no supporting documents there either - so what we have is her word or claim and that is it - by definition hearsay.   And when we look further it turns out that Ann and her good friend Fang who supposedly has all these original documents are both heavily involved in the wolf/ wolf hybrid industry. Hmm as Dr. Phil might say - do you think they might have a dog in the fight ( no pun intended). I just find it amazing that in this age of xerox copiers, scanners, digital imaging, and even cell phone cameras that for 10 years noone has bothered to actually put up the documents which back up what they are saying.  I also find it telling that there is at least one glaring error in her account.  She claims the name was changed to the Alsatian Wolf Dog. Now once again I'm happy to be corrected by our German friends who have information to the contrary but my understanding is the name of the breed never changed in Germany.  You can even search the web and and find old Zucht books for sale at antiquarian sellers and they say Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde.  It was the English who changed the name to the Alsatian ( and just plain Alsatian - I'm old enough to have been around when it was still being used). They did this because of the acrimony against anything German that grew out of the World Wars

Note that I am not saying it could not have happened. I'm just saying that I still have never seen the proof that is claimed. The other piece that makes me skeptical is the Germans have always been excellent and open record keepers. For example, my understanding is that on the record for the R litter Osnabrücker Land it clearly shows that there were 2 possible sires (the 2nd being a cyptorchid that climbed the fence) And certainly there are enough people interested in breed history that I can not imagine that outside parties have not had access to the original records for scholarly research purposes so once again you would think there would be copies available.