is this good or bad - Page 8

DoRight-  It's too bad we couldn't find some sort of statistical data to tell how many if any dogs who were trained to bite weather it be for personal protection or sport "accidently" vs. the family pet with no training at all.  I'd be curious to see the results as if I had to bet I'd say the untrained family pet who has possible nerve issues or a fear biter (who was never evaluated ahead of time to know these underlying issues)was far more unpredictable and dangerous than the sport dog or pp trained dog ( that has been evaluated to be of stable sound temperment).

I agree a dog is a mere physical deterant and you can't rely solely that he will save your life from a carefully planned attack by someone who knows how to succeed at their plan to harm you.  A dog can be shot and killed like a person; agreed.  MOST people will be hesitant to take the chance on challenging an intimidating dog and won't even take the chance that if the dog doesn't get them, the owners gun just may.  I think it's more of a personal peace of mind knowing what you have beside you and what you are comfortable with.  Some folks are comfortable carrying guns; I myself am not.  I feel like I'm walking around without underwear. lol  It's just not something I was ever able to be ok with and probably because I never had the desire to learn to be ok with it.  My husband on the other hand grew up with guns, in a different erra than our kids are in today.  He hunts and is an avid sportsman; knows how to use them and carrying a pistol on him is like putting his work boots on everyday.  I don't even want to see the guns they make me so nervous. 

My dogs I'm not afraid of because I've learned how to "operate" them so to speak.  I'd never suggest to anyone to just go get a trained dog that bites weather it be a sport dog or otherwise if they are not willing to educate themselves with someone that is willing to train them as well as the dog.  There's too much to learn and know before you can be comfortable with the responsibility and liability,like anything else.  You just don't go order a dog that is trained to bite and consider it a done deal that's all you needed to do was write the check.  I think much responsibility should also lie on the people selling and training these types of dogs to educate buyers who've never so much as held a leash in their hands before they just go make the sale.  But in the world of making money it's unfortunate that the dollar takes over all ethics.  Folks just need to be clear that an animal is an animal, can and will bite justified or not, accidents happen to both, nothing is a guarantee and stupid people should not own dogs period!

ilovemygsdnenz- It sounds like you are doing the right thing. Teaching him to not go on with the bad behavior. Is he fixed? or are they are breeding pair? If they are that could also lead him to act this way. I have seen it even in small dogs, the male can become over protective of his female. I think him being a show & family dog you should have better luck with changing his bad habits. It doesn’t sound like this is something that was taught to him at a young age. But something he pick up after your move. Dogs can also pick up on when you’re not comfortable at home. If you’re not feeling safe he might be on high alert (waiting for the shoe to drop). I think you have a good dog that just needs some work. As for not posting "Beware of dog" I agree this can ask for trouble however in my town if you don’t put it up and someone gets bit you’re at fault not them. I know it’s dumb but that’s the laws here. I think what you have posted however is much better. It gets the point across, that only a stupid person would brake in to your house. I see there has been a lot of talk about guns. I am not sure where you live but most of our crime is from drugies trying to steal anything they can sell. Not masked gun men. In that case I can bet the drugies would not come back to your house. But yes if someone really want to brake in or do you harm the fact is dog or no dog they will find a way. I hope you and your pup have the best of luck. Stay strong and don’t give in, you are the handler you need to teach him the right ways.

Agar.  I agree with you that the untrained nerve bag dogs are probably the ones who inflict the most bites (although it just might be that the really good family protectors that have nerves of steel actually bite more often, I just don't know), however, where we may diasgree (I am not sure that we do though) is that when an untrained family pet nerve bag bites someone, it is not as costly legally, as when a trained to bite dog hurts someone.  I know that the general rule of thumb in Ohio (of course every case is judged on its' on merits and circumstances) is that an average dog is sort of forgiven for the first bite on a person, but subsequent bites during that same incident or a bite of a second person during a different incident, is a legal problem.  This would not be the case if the dog were trained to bite.  Forgive me for the simple language used here, but I am trying to make it easily understood for those without a legal background. 

In other words, dog bites the mailman once, not too big of a problem.  Dog bites the mailman a second time, that same day or another day, and it is a big problem.  A trained to attack dog bites a mailman just once, and it is a big problem.  Sort of like if your 14 year old nephew gets the unloaded gun from under your mattress and then goes to the garage and digs out some old bullets from your tool box, loads the gun, and accidently shoots his neighbor friend vs your 14 year old nephew finds your LOADED gun under the mattress and accidently shoots his neighbor friend.  Both bad tragedies, but the latter is worse in civil litigation.

The problem with trained to bite dogs, besides the legal ramifications, is that many times there is a person (usually a woman for obvious reasons) that has a fear of someone (for whatever reason) and she does what she thinks she needs to do, ie: buys a trained dog for protection, but she is not really a dog person and does not receive the training and guidance needed to maintain the safety of having that loaded animal.  Of course the seller will provide what they deem as proper training and guidance, but you really have to be a "dog person" to have a chance to own a personal protection dog safely.  Many buyers are not.  Just scared people and looking for "help" and "security".  I can't say I blame them, but the reality is, that a trained to attack dog is a loaded gun, in your house.  I have a loaded gun in my house, and I truly believe that the loaded gun in my house, is safer to society than the loaded dog in my house.  Someone has to pull the trigger to set off a loaded gun but a loaded dog can set itself off.  You see it many times on the news where the only says "I just don't understand it, he has never been aggresive or bitten anyone in his life".

Ask enough cops if they have ever been bitten by a police dog, during a scuffle with a bad guy.  You will get many "yes" answers.  Dogs are not robots.

I actually know Nenz and his mommy.  I'm horrified by the people in this room who are giving them a hard time.  I would like to know who in this room is either a dog trainer or has studied dog psychology.  And no being a breeder does not count!  I am an actual trainer and have vast experience with dog psychology.  Even someone with a grade school education in the matter can tell that the dog is simply acting out of fear and defense.

Yes he has advanced other people and those people have claimed to be bitten.  But none of these people have any marks on them to back up their claims.  Nenz is a big dog and if he had actually bitten someone and not just mawed they would have significant injuries from the experience.

A dog acting in the way he did in self defense is completely understandable.  It shows that even though he has been abused by people outside of the home he still has his mind and instincts intact.  He is a good beta dog.  A beta dog is a dog whose only intent is the alpha period.  That means what the alpha reacts two weather physically or chemically he will respond to it.

Why is everyone ignoring the actual intent of this web site and lambasting her over her choice of boyfriend.  It is one thing to voice a concern and another to verbally or literary insult.  When someone is in this type of situation the only thing you do by making comments as many of you have is drive them further into a depression where that person can control them more easily.

Reading this chat is like watching a group of grade school children fight over the pronunciation of Mississippi!  If any of you were actual trainers or knew anything about true canine psychology you would have simply asked for a more detailed definition of what happened including body positions and alternative sounds that may have been at the moment.

I have never before been this truly embarrassed by a forum before.

Suki

 Um excuse me Suki, but I never saw anybody attack Nenz or his owner. She came on here asking whether the dogs behavior was good or bad, and people answered. I DO happen to be a full time professional dog trainer with over 22 years experience,university coursework in behavioral psychology, certified by an international canine professionals organization and specializing in aggressive behavior in dogs. I do not have the experience with protection dogs that some claim to have, but have worked with sport dogs and some personal protection for 7- 8 years. 

 Whether or not a dog has left marks on somebody is not what determines whether a dog is aggressive. A dog can growl and be showing aggressive tendencies. It does not matter whether the dog is acting out of fear/defense, or whatever other reason, the behavior when not under control of the handler, is still not good. If you read my post from Feb 4th at 16:02 you'll see it WAS stated that even just reading on the internet without seeing what is actually occurring and just reading between the lines from an obviously biased owner we said the dog was obviously acting out of fear to the ghosts in his closet. So it's nothing new what you're saying. 

The behavior is understandable if the dog was coming from an abusive situation, but that still does not make it ACCEPTABLE. SEVERAL people on here, myself included said she should seek the advice of a qualified professional. Why? because you shouldn't be here on the internet trying to solve aggression, we can't see the behavior or know what is going on, but can only make guesses based on some bits of information. Again, she came on here asking free advice,wanting to know if the behavior was good or bad.If she didn't want to know what people would say, she shouldn't have asked it on a public forum. When she did not get the answer she wanted, her friends started attacking us, going on about what a good boy Nenz is etc. Sorry, but nobody ever SAID he wasn't a good dog. But the behavior he is displaying is not acceptable, can create big problems for her and our beloved breed. I'm surprised anybody claiming to be a friend of hers would fail to try to explain that to her and fix the problem instead of coming on a list and trying to chide people about it because they "told it like it is". 

Again, I saw no "lamblasting" going on except from let's see, Nenz's owner when she called the posters here "internet losers"? Plays both ways there Suki. 

And btw, because there is no licensing or anything required for a person to become a trainer, just claiming to be a trainer does not mean one is qualified to deal with dog behavior (or "psychology" if you want to follow the current trend towards the dog whisperer) any more then a breeder who lives and breeds the dogs. We all are able to offer a solicited opinion (breeders, trainers, owners etc) and trying to pull the "rank" card and then defend the behavior of a dog that is showing fear aggressive tendencies, does nothing but make our industry look bad. Something that is embarrassing to me as a full time professional. 

you are only embarrassing yourself.

You gave advice without full details to begin with. That was poor posture.  And dog psychology has been around long before the dog whisperer.  What he does is nothing new and is only now coming into the light because he managed to get a couple of famous clients.

I mentioned no marks to point out one very good point.  When a dog is fearful it will use it's mouth to scare.  When it is aggressive it will use it to do actual damage... but as such a prestigious dog trainer I'm sure you already new that didn't you.

Suki

 ROFL so sorry, but anybody can give advice any time. The advice I gave was what...um, contact a qualified professional. I said that the poor dog sounds (by what she's saying) like he's walking on egg shells, and that the behavior he's exhibiting is not a good thing. I recommended that she Stop the behavior, get information on what protection training should look like, and contact a qualified professional. Yup, really embarrassing information. That requires a full behavioral assessment to say on the internet don't ya know. 

 Yes the study of animal behavior has been around since long before the dog whisperer. It's been in my experience though that the people that call it "dog psychology" are generally jumping on the bandwagon because CM coined that phrase and made it popular. Not something the schooled veterinary behaviorists even do. Then like I said, I'm only saying that because it's been my experience in my area here. 

And Suki you're not doing your friend there a benefit. "when a dog is aggressive it will use its mouth to do actual damage"?Vs when he is fearful he will only use his mouth to scare? What the heck is that? A dog that is growling is acting aggressively. A dog that is lunging at people is acting aggressively. A dog that is biting (with or without marks) is acting aggressively. There are MANY reasons behind aggressive behavior in dogs. He could be acting out of fear, trained response, pain, etc etc. It does not matter whether it's out of fear or any other motivator, it is still aggressive behavior. And unless under complete control of a competent handler, it is not a good thing. But then, to quote you "as such a prestigious dog trainer I'm sure you already NEW that didn't you"? 

 Sorry, but I'm not the one embarrassing myself. This thread is going nowhere, and is no longer providing any useful information. I already once said it was a waste of time, people's opinions are not changing, and when the dog grows in confidence but still has the aggressive behavior, but then actually leaves marks (because that's the direction it's progressing in if she doesn't stop it..which hopefully she's finding a qualified professional to work with the behavior to prevent that from happening) I only hope she calls him a mutt or something so our breed does not get another tick mark to set us up for breed bans. Because the thread is going nowhere intelligent, I will quote one of the greater posters from above "stick a fork in my I'm done!"

there is nothing to say about you and from what I've read there have been comments to several things she has posted that were uncalled for.  I'm done stooping to your level and to the level of others.  She has already gone to people who are competent and there are several working with the dog all with the same conclusion.  Not aggressive.  I'm shocked that the line between aggressive and defensive fearful behavior has become so thin these days.  Any animal will lash out under stress.... that does not make them aggressive no more than a human who feels they need to defend their life.  I pray I never meet another from your school for the training is obviously lax.

Suki

Suki if you are friends with Nenz and his mommy and you truly are in fact a "professional dog trainer" then you should have been the very first person to help her work out the dogs issues.  Surely if I had access to a "professional dog trainer" that was also a personal friend of mine I'd pick up the phone to call them before I logged onto a message board to have total stragers trouble shoot my dog problem via the internet.  Any dog of any breed that has been abused or is fearful is not a dog that can be trusted to be placed in socialized situations that it is not comfortable being in. 

I think the majority of the posters showed genuine concern that your friend just clearly had no idea how bad this situation could possibly be and what to do to avoid it but instead of taking that advice with appreciation she comes back with the "internet loser" statement.

But since you and your friend know everything there is to know about protection training and "dog psychology" then hell you don't need to explain anything to the rest of us nor do you need any advice from "internet losers".

Let it go, guys.  The OP came on here hoping eveyone would tell her that her doggy was very brave, but instead we told her the truth.  Let this idiot have the last say and lets be done with them.  In the immortal words of Blitz, "You can't fix stupid".