Fun Poll--What would your dog do? - Page 8

I train personal protection dogs everyday. People always tell me when they first arrive that the dog is schutzhund titled and does very good in protection work. But a lot of these dogs when put UNDER STRESS and no SLEEVE present will not defend the owner. I have seen numerous schutzhund dogs run away when a man in a bite suit and stick attack the owner. I agree with a few of the others that most dogs will not bite an attacker. A dog has to be trained to bite a man. We have spent thousands of years teaching dogs not to bite us, it is just no natural for them. As far as my peresonal dog goes, we train this very senerio as well as many others and the result is always the same. Dead BADGUY. My goes are trained to not hold onto the attacker but to bite all over the body and do numerous bites. He is a real dog and not a sleeve trained dog. I love this question because many people do think their dog will defend them but the hard truth is it won't. P.S. My dog is very social and very gentle and protective of my kids also. Again great question

IMO, a lot of these so called service dogs are of poor breeding and are whimps in real combat situations. Many police departments simply do not have the money or expertise to acquire sound protection dogs that will fight without attempting to devour innocent bystanders. Often the natural protective instinct is trained out of them to meet overly restrictive department standards and unrealistic rules. Also, IMO a fair proportion of canine trainers and officers don't know as much as they think they do about proper breeding or temperament. They haven't seen GSDs with correct temperament and don't know where to get it. I know of several GSD breeders who have bred and sold a number of GSDs (workingline profung winners and some from Vrated SV showline parentage)who have succeeded in real time combat situations. A sound and properly bred, selected and temperamented GSD has an innate advantage when protecting his owner & family on his home turf, especially in the middle of the night. Only some service dogs will fight this hard when on duty but they do exist. It's a big difference between a light bite on an attacker with a padded suit and an all out multiple- bite, 100% serious effort to defend his master and dominate and defeat the attacker. I know of some GSDs of recent years, some zuchschau and some profung who would never lose a "fight" with an attacker in an padded suit and would never quit until called off or victory was obtained. The ultimate home protection dog (if properly controlled at all times) was V- Lenon du val Danzin, imported into the USA. Trust me when I tell you this dog could not lose with any attacker on his home turf or in the brevay ring. A good example of proper GSD temperament, a lady living in a southern city near New Orleans with a very high crime rate bought an expensive showline import from a wealthy american kennel in Wisconsin, hoping to get a good looking dog that would protect her too. The dog had advanced schutzhund degrees, but in spite of that was just plain sound, trainable and very correct in mind and was a marvelous loving pet. A couple of years after the acquisition, the lady was accosted by an armed man as she opened the front door of her home bringing groceries in from the carport. The GSD immediately attacked the man with heavy biting to the stomache and groin. The man was able to get a round off and shot the dog in the scuffle whih went to the ground (the GSD took him down immediately). The attacker ran off, wounded and bleeding. The dog died from its wound, but the owner lived. She believed her dog saved her from being robbed, raped and murdered. She bought another dog of similar breeding. One of the hardest showline GSDs ever imported into the USA was the highly esteem VA Utz von Hirschel, Sch 3 owned by Kirchenwald Kennels in Pittsburg. I don't know what he produced as far as temperament, but the dog himself had the kind of temperament I am referring here to (totally sound, totally correct and heavy in the protective instinct--hard as nails). He like most of the stud dogs owned by Kirchenwald have this kind of temperament which deserves much praise.

Blitzen, My dog of choice is the Malinios. My last competition dog died a couple of years ago. I'm just now getting back in the game. Funny you should ask though. My new malinios is a nerve bag that is going back to the breeder. The current downward slide of the Mal is a whole different discussion though. I have a GSD pup comming next month.. God, what is this world comming to?

LOL you just might like him in spite of his breed.

I obtained a male Rott from the local shelter last year. He is about two or three and huge. I had him neutered. He is kenneled. I walk all of my dogs (taking turns) in my wooded acreage. I know nothing about this Rott's previous training (seems to be none) or previous life. Two stories about him. I was walking in the woods and there were two hunters on my property, hiding behind trees. My Rott sensed them and barked like mad, with me pleading with him to come back to me. I was afraid they were going to shoot him. My gut feeling is that if I would not have been yelling at him to come to me and "out", he may have attacked them. And probably got shot. Second story, this same dog and I were in the woods and my 25 year old son plays paintball a lot and he decided to put on his camo clothing and try to sneak up on me in the woods and scare me. The dog knows him but my son has only petted him a time or two. Anyway, my son was sensed or spotted hiding in the brush and my dog started barking at him. I did not know what was going on and assumed it was some kind of animal, or maybe a hunter again. Since the "jig" was up, my son jumped out of his hiding place and tried to scare the Rott and me, by yelling and raising his arms. You know, the old jump out and yell "BOO" thing. The Rott started after my son and my son turned and ran. The Rott bit my son on his arse. I called the dog back to me and that was that except the dog kept barking at my son (who was really pissed off). Of course my jerk of a son (who is not a dog person) wanted to kill my dog. I had a verbal fight with him in defence of my dog and asked my son "what did you expect a Rottweiller to do, run"? I keep them away from each other and they do not like each other, to this day. I'm on the dog's side :)

"Why this happens is the dog engages in the fight because that is the conditioned response to his training. They go after the person on the bottom because it is their instinctual compultion to eliminate the "weak-link" "If a pack is having trouble sustaining enough food they drive out the weakest pack member. If a pack memeber gets sick or injured- they are killed or driven out. If a puppy is sick or unhealthy the mother pushes it out." I can understand a dog's instinct to eliminate the weak link WITHIN the pack when the pack appears to be undergoing some sort of shift in rank and/or makeup. But in the training situations you describe, isn't it possible that the dog simply misunderstands what the pack is supposed to be: that is, just the dog and his handler? Hasn't the dog who attacks his downed handler incorporated the attacker into the pack, possibly because the dog eventually comes to see everyone involved in his training sessions as a member of a different, larger pack?

Hodie makes an excellent point. Being aware of where you are, what you are doing and what would you do if things go south. I would say " use your head " but my personal experience has been that people do not use their heads. Every one would answer the same, yes I use good judgement all the time. This is simply not true. Having worked in corrections for many years, growing up in a high crime city and being an observer of human nature it is obvious. Criminals pick their victums. They seek out the weak and vulnerable first. Why are prisons full, lots of vulnerable people. I am gereralizing of course. I am a firm believer in being aware of your envireoment first. I raised my children and that was a common theme. Look at what options you have and know what options are available. I do not want to ramble on, just wanted to say that that is the first and best line of defense. Drive defensively!!!!! assuming people will not stop when you have the right away. However, there is nothing one can do in this life to be completely safe. I like the odds in my favor. I want the knowledge that when I am out for the evening and my wife is alone, that she is safe. I know that my dogs would be a good deterant in that they would raise a real ruckus and most sensible bad guys would go else where. I also know first hand that there are those out there that have NO sense. I know them, have dealt with them for years. These are the ones that concern me. The ones that are on pcp or simply have little to know fear. These are the ones that will only understand being overpowered by physical force or lethal force. These are the ones that I am concerned about and do my best to be prepared for. We are out of town and I have learned not to depend on our local law enforcement with budget cuts and all. Do I sound paranoid? Mabe. I don't spend alot of time thinking or worrying about this but I do try and be prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I have had the pleasure of working with some great dogs in the past and I will say it again that one cannot assume that the dog they depend on will save their life in a fight for life. One needs to know what their dog will do if one is concerned about this. There are way too many variables in these situations to say because " because Fido did this in these circumstances " that Fido will respond likewise in all circumstances. Preston, I respect your thoughts on this topic and respect your experience in life, I also am accutely aware that dogs indoors will respond differantly than out doors, or being on lead or not or having the owner [handler] in control or not. As I mentioned, there are just too many variables to use isolated situations as proof of the pudding. Same with staged. Staged must be extremely real to the dog. This is an area that requires more then acting like an attacker. It's a state of mind. Don't ask me to explain it but I know when it's there. Over the years much of the natural sharpness in GSD's has been bred out. Today the gsd is expected to have perfect social behavior, love everyone, and welcome people in the home. We are in a pc world that simply will not tolerate dogs that have `a high degree of distrust for anyone other than family. This is a no no. We want all dogs to be golden retrievers. Of course I am stretching it a little to make a point. This breed, in my opinion is NOT the breed it was when it truley was expected to protect all. I would agree that the true gsd is a brave, couragous dog that would fight anything anywhere. Unfortunatly these dogs are .not around

Don't know what happened. Not real swift on the computer. My last statement was going to read , unfortunatly these dogs [ corrected to] are very hard to find, in my opinion. This is not to say that I want or we should breed for an animal that can't be trusted around children, or that he cannot go for a walk in town. So please do not go to the extreme on me. I am just saying that most of what the gsd was is not what he is today. Aloofness is not a priority today. Thanks for reading for those that wanted to read this loooong post. I had no intention of rambling as I did, sorry for that. I do not ever want to offend any one any where any time. This subject is a passion for me and I am always wanting to search out the truth. If you read this Real Dog, you really opened a great issue and I value your experience. Waiting for saturday. Hear the drum role?

Most dogs would bite or somehow try to protect you but in the end YOU probably will get arrested and YOUR dog would be taken away to be assessed to see if it's a danger to society. The mugger will sue you for his injuries and most likely get compensation. The victim is now the criminal and the criminal is now the victim.

Well, this thread has certainly gotten long. Good responses,interesting. Like 1 doggie I am also fortunate enough to have a dog who will protect me no matter what. Even if I am on the bottom of the attack. I know this because he is well trained in countless scenarios including this one. A well bred GSD is a great asset to anyone but I agree that many if not most will not protect you at all times, in all scenarios with real bad guys. Thankfully barking and bared teeth deters alot of bad guys.What if the bad guy throws a metal garbage can at your dog to separate you? Will not many dogs run?or become unnerved? Making the assuption that an untrained or only Sch trained dog will really protect you in real life, with real bad guys...maybe 2 attackers at the same time is a BIG mistake. You need to train and test them , and it's not all that easy to find the correct dog to start with and then train either,but they are there.Then to find competant decoys ....that's another thread. A good PP dog is expensive, and not all are that good, but the good one's are worth their weight in gold and are a credit to the breed. BTW a good one is also gentle with kids etc.