Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 8

Re passing three times etc.

It beggars belief that credible proofing at that level - does not weed out weak dogs. (Part of the proofing process should be - ditch the suit, gobsmacked if it doesn't).

Equipment aside, the dog in question is unsuitable, the lack of appropriate drive is glaringly obvious.  Genuine civil/fight drive is a constant it does not appear one day and is AWOL the next lol.

R
Gee

Gee: Because a good civil dog CAN'T and does not pick and choose when it will engage, it's desire to fight the man - overrides everything. That raw drive is ALWAYS untrained, that's what gives the dog consistent reliability to engage. Good training, including challenging environments will increase performance, but that resilient drive HAS to be there to begin with - ALWAYS, when it is not - bluff is all you are left with.

 100%

Bavarian wagon, I have a simple way of testing that , works for me in both young and older dogs, no training or trained, makes no difference
also when I see pedigrees prior to testing I can predict 90 % of the time what result I will get,

Im sure some dogs that fail my test will end up somewhere working fine, also there is big difference in requirements per vendor or department

many vendors and departments work fine with dogs that come hard and have full calm grip on sleeve, some of my clients who take the stronger more civil dogs dont care about IPO points bite, just need a dog willing to engage in every situation, never had a criminal complaining the bite was not full and/or calm

and why is it not fair to point out mistakes of policedogs, this can mean difference between life and death, if a policedog cannot function right he shouldnot been sold as policedog, be it from training or genetics,
I woult bet a lot of money that most dogs that fail, DONT fail because of bad training, but because of bad genetics

dogs with good nerves and drives need minimum training to function well and less chance on error

dogs with genetic flaws need much more training/shaping to get to desired level and have greater chance to failure

No swat dept no special forces, really no specialized anything brags about the ability to train the weaker to top level. You start with the ones that have the confidence have a need to dominate and thrive almost solely on the adrenalin rush the job provides, they are straight junkies. Dogs are no different.

No dept brags about working up weaker people to those positions all brag about starting with the best for the job and attempting to make them into the ideal. Theres no need to reinvent the wheel here. Why would you

Gigante, Im in the chain from beginning till almost end mostly and believe me, many dogs who are just under minimum, ore more, are trained up and offered to vendors, some pass some dont, some are trained and offered multiple times to different vendors,
I get same dogs offered to me multiple times by different people

this will be the case as long as the demand is bigger than the amount of quality dogs offered

When you speak of the swat or special forces dogs...you're talking about the national/world level sport dogs. There are few of them and they are far in between. I'm 100% in agreement that no one wants to reinvent the wheel and that a dog MEANT for the job is way easier to train than one that isn't...but there aren't enough of them in either venue.

Not all police departments can have special forces type dogs, be it due to lack of supply or lack of funding in order to get that level of dog. Bottom line is that not all dogs that perform real life work are "elite" level in the same way that most dogs that do IPO aren't the "elite" of that venue. Department to department...club to club...minimum standards are always different.

 

Duke...would love to hear your simple method of testing the "civil" ability of the dog. The way I see it is that I can very easily test if a dog is willing to engage a hidden sleeve/man, but IMO that doesn't always equate to natural "civil" genetics.

dont use hidden sleeve as that can be trained and dogs will smell it anyway, it requires quite a bit ability to "read "the dog as well but most dogs are clear yes or no

will see if I can tape it sometimes, will test 20 to 30 dogs next few days but driving alone, so no one to hold a camera

 

BW@ I was speaking on people not dogs. I believe it was you that said from any litter and I responded throw a rock into a litter and lets see you do that. You have said many times its training not genetics so the problem is poor trainers not the lack of stock.

:) Sorry cant have it both ways.

Duke please post a video of the face of the ding dong telling you he has your next dog when you canned the dog previously more then once we could use a humorous break about now. Thats hilarious. After you post your method for civil test also include your client list sorted alphabetically with phone numbers thanks in advance.

What are you talking about gigante? I know you have comprehension issues so lets stop making things up and taking sentences and posts out of context.

Yeah...training is usually the problem. You need to have a decent dog, and for high level you need a really good dog. But there are really good dogs out there that will never achieve high levels of sport or be put in real working situations because they're put in the wrong home and aren't for sale to a broker.

What you like to breed and train can be completely different from what some other trainer wants to train...end goal can be the same, end goal can be accomplished in either way, but the dogs and training are vastly different.

Thanks for the explanation duke...it's what I figured...based on your own experience and idea of what civil is you can see if a dog has it or doesn't. Not saying it's wrong, but it's subjective. Both competition dogs in my home have been tested on a hidden sleeve...both took one without a problem but I'll be the first to tell you that I don't really consider them highly civil. Both will easily bite anyone and anything even with their foundation being for IPO. Most people would never call these dogs civil (I don't care), but both have no problem taking something other than a sleeve...so in theory are both civil.