The Myth about Golden middles - Page 4

Dees Wolf,
Well said.

The person who developed the breed was not worried about "pretty" dogs.

 "Our German Shepherd dogs have never been  bred for color, which for the working dog is a matter of quite secondary consideration.  Should any fashion breeder allow himself to pursue such  a senseless fad, he might be bitterly disappointed, for even with parents of the same foundation coloring, pups of an entirely different color - an ancestral hark back - might be the result."  Page 130 in max's book.

 He wasnt concerned about being pretty.  But, he does mention color being important for working..as far as being able to absorb heat from the sun in the winter...etc.  

There is a pic on page 168 from the early 1900's of a german shepherd sitting next to what looks  like a mal and he calls a Belgian smooth haired shepherd dog.  Im not sure what the history is on the mal's but this is probably something similar very to one.  I would guess that the super high prey drive would be there also....so if max wanted that over the top prey....he would have bred for it.

There should be no golden middle...breeders should breed for what the starndard calls for.   You will always have dogs with a little different tempraments, drives...etc.   The structure should be one of the easier things to get right.

It amazes me to read discussions on what the breed should be......when most of the people do not have the founders book and have not researched it...just setting back and going by what THEY think is right.

I think the only way to understand what the breed is supposed to be is to read Max's book over and over.  Then WORK  as many different gsd's as possible in as many different areas of work as possible.  That is the only way to decide which way to go with a breed.....which is clearly spelled out in his book.

 If you dont that the book.....I would suggest you get it.  I cant believe the amount of work the man did on creating the breed.

If you look at "the split" between the show and working people it is obvious that this was done strictly for money. Now it is too late the show dog is a breed in itself.

That is not to say the working dog doesn't need to be structurally correct.

It is very important that the working dog people understand the kinematics of motion, and the functions of different body parts including what is proper and why it is needed.  Similarly, the show dog people need to know that the schutzhund titles are needed not just to qualify the dog as a breeding animal but to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs character and working ability.  The scorebook by itself does not tell everything.  You, as a breeder, need to work your own dog, and when you work your own dog, you have to find answers to your training problems through the dogs strengths, thus it helps you understand the true character of the dog.  Once you know your own dogs, and you have a feel for what you want to produce under your kennel name, then you start looking for the appropriate breeding partner. 

The schutzhund sport today places a lot of emphasis on sprints and speed, and unless you are doing high level sport, most of the people don't even think about naturally high stamina.  However, the forefathers of the breed wanted to see the German Shepherd dog as a high endurance animal.  The show dog people, in my opinion, do a lot more endurance work with their dogs than the working dog people.  This is just an example, and I am sure that other people of the list  can think of many other things  that one side does better than the other.  As a breeder, you are the torch bearer of the breed, therefore, it is important that before you breed the german shepherd dogs you understand the  history of the breed, and your goals don't vary drastically from the forefathers, otherwise you will be breeding just a one generation dog.  The understanding of the breed comes from the respect and tutleage of good breeders

Did you forget about the AD???

Ravenwalker -

I actually stand somewhat corrected - after some digging I found some West German woring lines that do look structurally like stephanitz's dogs - I generalized because the majority I see have that curvey back, shorter legs, shorter muzzle and heavier bone...and for that generalization I apologize.  If your dog looks like his than that is amazing...I imagine that as they were working dogs back then that that structure lends itself to working....and personally I think it looks better.

The book that I am am looking at should be the same copy you have if the pages line up...and it is exactly the same as the original copy I borrowed from a chicago library.

~Cate

What I find interesting about the term "Golden Middle" is that I can't seem to find any evidence that either Alfred Hahn of Busecker Schloss or Karl Fueller of Kirschental ever described their breeding efforts to be toward a "Golden Middle" goal.  Rather, what they sought to breed were dogs with good conformation that would work, which seems to be the continuation of the goal of the founder of the breed.  And I think it can be fairly stated that Hahn and Fueller were/are the two most successful breeders in the history of the breed at doing just that.

From Kirschental's website: 

"During all my years of breeding, I have never lost sight of my breeding goals.  'Focus on workability, because it serves the breed', of course one could also say, 'Focus on the breed, because it serves workability'.  A very important criteria in my breeding goals, has always been workability. Only with several exceptions, all my dogs have been worked and titled in HGH. As a professional shepherd, I do not have the time to go for walks with my dogs, but instead my dogs have their exercise working daily with the sheep. A German Shepherd Dog that has anatomical errors, overangulation, incorrect reach, or small long paws, is not capable of working all day long in the field. Herding dogs must also be extremely healthy. Having to work from early morning to late at night, summer or winter, they cannot be sensative. Obviously, healthy hips and elbows are a necessity."

"Take the top showdogs and working dogs and breed them for a few generations and you not only get hybrid vigor but you likely get a dog the majority would say bettered the breed."

Yes, but that would involve two things that the vast majority of either working line or show line breeders seem unwilling to do: a) take chances and b) stay out of the top ranks of either working or show competitions during those few generations it would take to re-set their "type."  I can't say that I follow the working lines as closely as I do the show lines, but the only top show-line breeder I've heard of doing this is Martin Goebl of Wildsteiger Land.

As for the AD, it is a bare minimum qualification that my 12-year-old overangulated Am-bred dog might pass even today, and I'm the first to admit that he's hardly what the founder intended.  Actual HGH working dogs in Germany are expected to cover as much as 50-100 miles per day, every day.  I frankly don't think there are many top dogs from either the show or working lines who can come close to doing that.  The majority of the show lines are too angulated behind, and the majority of the working lines are too long in loin to have the kind of efficiency needed to cover that kind of distance.  And both lines are trending toward oversize, in the show line to have that all-important ground-covering side-gait and in the working line to have more skeletal frame to hold all that muscle needed to impress the judge when rocketing to the helper.  These are generalizations, BTW - I'm sure fans of each line can point to individual dogs that are of correct conformation. 

Ajay,  Says it about as perfectly as it can get !!    Description of the "Golden Middle" is clear and not contorted at all.  Too bad some of the folks here have to twist it to something meaning LESS so they will have something to argue about.

I think the biggest issue with the "Golden Middle" is the definition/perception of the definition.

Golden Middle for me is the BEST dog,  for other its meaning is mediocre dog.

I think if someone came up with a "Standard" definition for Golden Middle that would be close to Ajay's description it might help lessen the argument.  And I thought Ajay's definition was excellent,  Bob0 clearly understood it as well as others,  Yet some will just NEVER get it. 

This is an article from Ulf Kintzel, a shepherd on the Golden Middle. 

http://www.workingdogs.com/ulfgolden.htm

I really like that article, it makes a lot of sense- thanks sunshine!

T-