breeders - Page 8

Deeswolf, Couldn't have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Echomuddles, I'm not going to cull through your phony website. Either answer the question or don't. The truth will set you free.

ok, lets define "work"  I have dogs titled in herding and they work.  They are dirty and dusty and they get in and do the job.  They work on untrained sheep who are not dog-wise.  They drive, gather and cut.  They work sheep, ducks, goats (far harder than sheep), and cattle.  I have one SchH titled dog.  Yes, only one.  My dogs are hip and elbow certified and obedience trained.  They do agility and dock diving.  Schutzhund is a sport.  If I wanted to be really snotty I could say, if you are doing schutzhund, your dogs play, my dogs work.  My dogs dont do hard bite work but faced with a 1700 lb. angry steer, they never waiver.  Interestingly you said... that you are improving your line and honestly I think that is probably the best description as individuals we can give to breeding for betterment.  Because you cannot tell me my dogs dont work.  But neither do you probably want a driving dog, and ultimately the true test of workability is, you take my dog and train him to "work" in your eyes.  I take your dog and teach him to "work" in my eyes.  I am betting that one of your dogs, though he is "trained" to do well in bite work or real life protection, whatever the terms you want to call it, is capable of doing "my" kind of work, NOT because of his current training, but because of the background you put into the breeding.  I am also betting that one of my dogs could do well at "your" type work. 

Lisa

Echo,

Which ones are too young to title? I went to your website for the first time just now. It doesn't say the ages of the parents but I'm assuming you mean the pups you kept back are too young to title? I like the look of some of the sold pups on your site. Can't remember their names.

There are different types of bloat and torsion.  Bloat is the filling and holding gas in the gut, and torsion is the twisting that can accompany the flotation of the gut in the abdomen. It's like this, inflates, floats, then twists and cuts off the blood flow causing shock and necriosis of various and or selcet portions of the gut.  But there is also a splenic torsion and splenic dysfunction (cholic).  GSDs are especially prone to toprsion of the splene which can kill the dog very rapidly.  There is also the disorder where the GSD bumps his spleen against an objects or bruises it when jumping or twisting.  This causes swelling, congestion and necrosis of the spleen. Surgical incision to access the spleen followed by splenic massage has been one proven method of saving the spleen if done rapidly enough.  Some vets recommend just removing the bruised spleen.  Sometimes the spleen's blood supply can be disrupted through twisting.  Just as with gastric torsion, there has to be a defect in the mysentery or support system.  I know of a number of cases personally iover the last 40 yuears where a certain well known stud dog has produced a great deal of gastric and splenic torsion, mostly splenic in one case. It is commonly believed by long time experienced GSD breeders that torsion is usually due to a polygenically recessive traits in most cases but can also be a dominant with incomplete penetrance.  Highly suspect genetic factors are weak mesentery confirmation, inability for the dog to belch to release gas, excess depth of chest, lack of adequate ligamentation or loose ligamentation, poor confirmation of the gut and/or spleen itself and or their blood supply.  Poor quality dog food has been linked to the occurrence of bloat, probably due to excess gas occurrence.  Corn and wheat and soy are suspect here based on a lot of past anecdotal evidence of breeders.  Anyone who thinks gastic and splenic torsion is not genetic is just plain wrong. I have never once heard of any occurrence of gastric torsion in any GSD that has a history of being able to belch or that has good ligamentation, ie dry working type that is highly agile without excessively deep chest confirmation.

Lisa,

Very well said! I agree completely with you. Out of the 9 dogs in my kennel, 5 of them actually can herd, and herd well. Three of them have HGH, and one is a certified SAR/HRD K9.

I love that we have a breed that is diverse in its working ability. A good herding dog is worth every minute of time and energy. However, with that said, based on the standard of working ability I feel a breed survey is paramount before a dog is bred. That is my personal opinion.

Our breed has a standard, and has had it for a long time. So often we see that standard manipulated, and contourted to the point we now have several "strains" of GSD. I think we have manipulated this breed to meet our own personal standards and not the actual standard. We all love the breed for its diverse nature, yet we seem to think we can develop and execute separate standards because of the job we want our dogs to do.

I hate the show world, I hate everything about it. I enter the show world and have my dogs run the ring for the requirement of a conformation rating. To me, I would much rather see a dog that can work, well at a working job and excell at that.  So then, if a dog isn't a schutzhund and it is a working herding dog, it still should be able to meet the requirements of a breed survey. We forget, that although schutzhund has become a watered down "sport" it is still part of the criteria that we use to determine breed worthiness. If we start saying it is okay for Person A to breed Dog K to Dog L, because it is an excellent SAR dog, we again are manipulating the criteria to justify the breeding of those two dogs. I have an incredible working line female who is top notch in SAR/HRD, however when she was tested at a year old for schutzhund she didn't have what it takes. She was immediately altered, and I put her to work in SAR. That didn't lessen her ability to do her job, but she never ever would have made it through a breed survey. She is not the kind of dog to attack someone, even if they were beating the hell out of me.

Preston, I guess all this genetic research is just a waste of time. It's too bad you didn't let them know what you have been well aware of for forty years.

Dees ... again, I agree with you and I think part of the reason that people train GSDs (mainly) for schh is that, most folks don't keep a swamp load of farm animals around so that their dog has something to herd, and secondly we dont particularly need herding dogs in the same fashion that we used to because of the advent of fences, gates, etc.  It is kind of a dying art.... and those damn border collies... (of which I have 2  )

but i agree with you.  I agree about the breed survey, but only to a point.  I am not sure breed surveys are used in completely the right way, and interestingly speaking of border collies, it would be interesting to see what would happen if there were rules incorporated like the abca has which state that if you are going to show your border collie in conformation alone, you may not register it with abca.  Harsh, but they have maintained he workability in the abca very well.

Spook, I am all for good genetic research.  But many of these academic projects suffer from faulty designs and have serious statistical and logic flaws. I believe that bloat and torsion in GSDs is different than in other large breeds to a certain degree. Where a lot of this current bloat/torsion research goes wrong is the lack of consultation with old timers who learned how to manage these issues throught the school of hard knocks.  Selection of variables and  hypothesis for any scientific study should be drawn from a widened knowledge base of real world occurences and surrounding variables.  I very much like the specific gene mapping studies, the best recent example is the discovery of the specific gene for longcoat.  This example was based on solid hypothesis that were discoverable at a specific genetic level. The hypotheses upon which most of these funded bloat/torsion research projects are based on (in my opinion) are too narrow and do not incorporate adequate sources of variance.  If this is missing, results are usually invalid.  If one's hypothesis are too narrow, that is, they don't incorporate enough variables to explain the covariance that occurs with the overall phenomena, then one cannot explain very much of the variability.  When a study explains les than 20% of the vriability, this to me is not to be taken seriously.  Spook you talk real smart and make snide remarks, but how about backing up your assertions? I don';t think you know much about the GSD genetics.

Preston, I know enough that I'm not going to tell a biologist involved in the genetic study of bloat that I know more than he does. You apparently think you do. I like a lot of your post, but your off line on this one. Dr. Pletcher and other genetic biologist may know a tiny bit more than you.

allaboutthedawgs...I just got back on this thread and no I haven't tried Arnica. If you have a web site I would look into it, or I can try to google it...

I did use Arnica some years back. It was prescribed by a acupuncture/chiropractor that used alot of natural medicines. I wonder if it has a expiration, probably. It was little itty bitty white balls that you put in their lip to dissolve. I used it for a back problem my best bud was having. Thanks for reminding me, you can email me by clicking my user name.