Shiloh Shepherds - Page 9

PSP ROFLMFAO. That's funny! Oli needs to add that.

"The source for Tina's information is Max's book on the German Shepherd. Current editions have been edited to remove the references to the wolf-blooded dogs!"

According to several who possess the original first edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture, von Stephanitz did not state that the GSD was immediately descended from wolves or part-wolves, so it would seem that this is a myth propagated by those who like to stir the pot for their own purposes.  

It is well-accepted that the GSD breed was formed from sheepherding dogs from Franconia, Wurttemburg and Thuringia.  If you poke around a little on the internet, you will find such histroical tidbits as the Wurttemburg shepherd dogs bringing in size and bushy tails and the Thuringian shepherd dogs contributing trotting structure and erect ears. In any event, it would seem quite unlikely that a professional shepherd of the time would seek such wolf traits as shyness and avoidance in working dogs that needed to be tough and confident to perform their jobs. 

What we would refer to today as the Mongrel, was crossed with the Wolf hybrid, and eventually became the foundation for the German Shepherd of today.

Read that quote carefully. Does it say DIRECTLY descended?? For the whole story, please go here: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm and read about Woelfi von Wolfnest.  Unfortunatley, the page is protected so I cannot cut and paste.

"Read that quote carefully. Does it say DIRECTLY descended??"

Read my post again carefully.  I said " von Stephanitz did not state that the GSD was immediately descended from wolves or part-wolves..."  

As for the Horowitz "source" Ms. Barber relies so heavily upon to "prove" a more immediate "wolf connection," at the time of publication it relied upon thirty or forty year old second-level hearsay from a guy in another country to support its claims.  Sorry, but that proves nothing.  Neither does the bit about Borzois going nuts at shows when a GSD progenitor passed by because they must have determined that he was part wolf, when they could have just as easily reacted that way because he had upright ears and LOOKED like a wolf to them.  The bit about Woelfi von Wolfsnest being shy and then producing shy progeny when bred to her not-shy son could as readily be seen as an example of incest breeding reinforcing a temperament  flaw as a reconcentration of wolf blood.

Moreover, to buy into the Horowitz-Barber thesis, one has to conclude that von Stephanitz deliberately lied  about, or at best attempted to obscure, the foundation behind the GSD. 

Frankly, what I see here is a contrived attempt by Ms. Barber to analogize her outcrossing the Malamute into her Shiloh to what she alleges von Stephanitz and others did with wolf hybrids to create the GSD.  This in turn would support her claim that what she's really done with the Shiloh is breeding a true "old-style GSD-type" that one just can't find any longer, notwithstanding that no late 19th century shepherd in his right mind would have ever wanted to have a 130 lb. unathletic dog with zero drive to tend his sheep.  

In my opinion, this is rubbish.  But if you think she's on the mark, then I'm sure you'll like this!

 http://members.tripod.com/~story_of_sara/www/Dog_or_Wolf.html

Ms Barber if your selection process was so selective, why was Malamute allowed to be bred into the "breed"?  I know this is a fact - maybe not from your own breeding program, but from others who register their dogs as Shiloh Shepherds. 

where in the GSD standard (the one from Germany) does it allow oversized, long-coated dogs? 

The SV standard doesn't allow White Shepherds either, but they still exist -- in their OWN right!!  Ever hear of the .... http://members.aol.com/wsengl/index.htm

Maybe you should read .... http://www.gaardog.com/breed_types_&_standards.htm 

There are lots of "shepherd' "types" out there .. Linda Shaw had a great site that explained all of them!!  The Shiloh Shepherd doesn't use the SV standard, I wrote mine 17 years ago, and all of the ISSR breeders have continued to follow it!!  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapTheRegistry.htm 

I have seen 5 Shiloh shepherds in my whole life, and all of them were displastic. One was really pretty.

Amazing!!  Since the ISSR breeders produce less then 300 puppies per year -- coast to coast -- that you have only met 5 & all of them had CHD?  The odds of that should be equal to winning the Lotto - 5 weeks in a row!!  WOW!!

Or did you meet dogs the were just GSD mixes, calling themselves "shilohs" YOU SHOULD READ http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/shilohWallShame.htm 

p59

In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF Crosses.".

Note: fang@howling.com OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books.

I have seen this book back in the 80's, and I also know the person that Jim sold it to!! 

OH ok, so you wrote your own standard.  Oversized, long-coated, mixed-breed, no-drive, weak-temperament, sharp/shy, dysplastic dogs that you call the "real old-style German Shepherd".  That's how they are supposed to be, right?  Nothing to do with ANY standard written for ANY working German Shepherd breed of dog at ANY time, from Germany or anywhere else.  Great.  Explains a lot - just like Labradoodles - what a mess.

molly

Ohhh ... I almost forgot, Ann has copies of those pages!  http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm