Sieger show in Canada - Page 6

Good for you sunshine,great post

Wow, It looks like there's lots of stuff being written about the show. There are so many unorganized thoughts. Most like Allen (vom Fallsview) pointed out are misconceptions by those posting. I seem to recall posts similar to this occurring after the USA sieger show and after things were discussed. The issues weren't really that big. The dog poop that got picked up after the show and everyone was happy, the comment about being told the bitework was good when he was there to see it, Judge staying at a participants house when he was in the host hotel,,yada, yada....

I'm a little disappointed in my fellow countrymen in how they have become so outspoken in a very unsportsmanlike way. When we enter an event participants sign on to participate and accept the results of the judges decision without protest. If there's a problem, there are many ways to take up an issue through the proper channels without resorting to posting misinformation on an international website. It's a little embarrassing to hear there was a complaint to the SV head judge and it was the wrong dog. We should consider the effect this has on how the US is perceived as a country. I recall the fighting between the Indians a few years back. Think of what we thought of them and now what others are thinking of us. That's all I'll say about that subject.

I'll make a few general observations I witnessed and can comment on as I was there from the trial to the closing ceremonies. I'm sorry to say I didn't see every detail, so there are some I can't comment on. All in all I felt it was a very good show. The dogs in each class were placed in their proper order. The judge took his time examining every dog in the stand and there was little movement in the class once the class started indicating to me his initial assessment was correct. I have no reservations showing under this judge at future events.

The winning working female was handled by a Canadian. The winning working male was handled by an American. I'm not sure why the 'German Handler' advantage is being thrown around here when Americans and Canadians handled the winning working dogs.

I feel a little sorry for Jaz. He was measured a couple times to insure a correct reading. The problem I saw was with his stack. When you have a large dog, you should not lift it into position and have his favorite toy in a hockey stick being displayed right outside the ring. Jaz looked excited and erect wanting to get his ball. I think if the dog was just stacked and stood at ease, he would have been in the show. I believe handler error contributed to Jaz' situation in the ring.

The post that began this thread is about two dogs that never made it through the stand. I don't see any reason to stand up for changes, yada, yada. It looks like the dogs were put in situations they were not prepared for or shouldn't have been in. The situation that started this discussion was not born at this show. It's a repeat of previous shows.

Helper payoff. I can't figure out who would want to do this. Aparantly there was a high placing male at this show that reportedly paid a helper off back in 1999 or something from the information posted here. I don't recall and high placing 10 year old dog in the working male class.

From the conversations I had with other participants, I think the show was well received. Next years' show is in Quebec. I'm looking forward to that one too.

Randy,  do you have a link to Show regulations and procedures?  Does the SV have one?  It is ok if it is in German.

Absolutely,

Here is the link to the Canadian National website that contains all the information participants are given about the show.

http://www.2007nationals.gsscc.ca/

Randy,

This is what I posted earlier on this thread:

Historically, I know for a fact that helpers have been offered significant sums of money to go easy on certain dogs. Back in 199?, one of the helpers told me that "xxxx" came to his motel room and offered him $1000. The helper declined--the dog was chased off the field. FYI, "xxxx" was in Canada this past weekend and did well.

FYI, 'xxxx" refers the owner (not the dog) at the show back in the early '90's (my first USA Sieger Show--I imagine before you began showing at these events). Indeed, there was no "payoff" because the helper declined to accept the offer--or, so he told me. I was at the event. I knew the helper personally because he later trained/titled one of my dogs. Regardless what transpired between the owner and the helper, the dog failed bitework miserably at this show.

No, not on you life, am I going post names of dogs and/or people implicated in the events I witnessed at the shows either in the 90's or at NASS 2006. Any of you have questions or want further details--you know how to contact me privately. I'm not lying nor was I hallucinating. I know what I saw (certainly, what I've described was not during the judging of a class but long after the show was over--when nearly all of the spectators had left the NASS show grounds much earlier) and managed to put "2 and 2" together only after I checked the the official results on the NASS website a week later.

You know, I generally go to these shows alone so that I can personally assess the dogs without distractions or partying/socializing. I want to see the dogs myself--not read or hear what someone else has to say about them.

Yes Louise, I know you tend to see things for yourself and form your own opinions based on what you observed. I also know you pretty much know what you are looking at when you do.

In the original post we have an allegation of misconduct at a national show and somewhat of an endorsement by your post. I'm trying to figure out why someone even in a moment of frustration would come up with something like this??? There were two helpers selected Saturday afternoon. . The male helper spoke French.  All the top contenders in the male class had passed protection in previous events.

So what set of circumstances existed where someone would want to invest any sum of money in paying off a helper when the only ones that would benefit have already demonstrated their ability to perform previously. Let's say for some reason, someone did want to. What would the payoff be? All the VA and high V dogs were that going into the show. There's no possible gain,,,,, is there.

So you have a situation where you would have to be sitting in your hotel room figuring out how you are going to contact this French speaking helper and offer him some money to go easy on your dog because you're hoping,,,,what? It's not like there's a pot of gold out there to be had for your trouble.

Now think what happens if there is someone with a desire and manages to influence this helper. If the dog is that weak, he probably wouldn't go pronounced after all that effort.

So it sounds like a rant from a frustrated competitor to me.

Randy i Respectfully disagree with you on the following points. (1) Why do you believe that the judge followed the rules in allowing the dog which bit the helper on the hand to continue when the rules clearly state that the dog should have been disqualified? (2) Why was the German owner allowed to speak with the judge and have his dog which was dismissed for being over sized reinstated in the ring when the other owners were not given this oppurtunity? I for one do not feel that the thoughts on this post are unorganized they clearly show the facts as they pertained to the show and the underlying problems of the judge applying the rules in a fair and equitable manner. The rules are very straightforward and leave no room for discretion. bite or harrass the helper after being outed and you are Disqualified . Where is this a judgement call? This is neither a rant or a frustrated competitor as i did not show my dogs last weekend but a person that is very disturbed at what i witnessed last weekend and a person that is willing to stand up and say that what i witnessed was unfair and should not have happened. If it is allowed to continue I feel that these shows can no longer be considered a sport as it has lost its legitimacy in judging and the conidence of the participants that the judges will follow the rules that they are entrusted to uphold. I for one as an educated person would be more disappointed in my Countrymen if they said nothing. This country was built by people willing to stand up for themselves and others. I feel that the only way that things will get better is by discussing these topics in an open and respectful manner for in the end if people stop competing because of perceived wrongs then the sport and the breed are the ones that will ultimatley pay the price. It will be very interesting to see what happens in St Louis in October. In regards to the Canadian Sieger show there were a total of 176 entries this year when the show was held in Toronto just 5 years ago there were almost 500 hundred entries so with a decline of 50-60% in just 5-6 years can anyone continue to say that there is not a problem in the Sport? People are starting to stay away from the shows.

Mike,

I'm not sure I commented on the subjects you mentioned, but I guess we can have a discussion. If you would post the rules from the Canadian Nationals that ;"...clearly state that the dog should have been disqualified."

This is a link to the SV's highlights for the German Siegershow this year.  It is very interesting to read.  It is in German, assume an English translation will be available. 

Basically stated, the protection portion is crucial to placement as well as progeny.  That dogs that may have been higher placed during the Club and Regional shows in the working classes, may not necessarily be an indicator of their placement at the Siegershow.  Also that the heel off leash is to be in the mid-trot and not in the fast or flying trot, but in the original working dog pace that clearly shows the movement of the dog as it was intended to be.  I hope I did an OK job in summarizing.  There are other German speakers on this board that may add to this.

http://www.schaeferhund.de/site/fileadmin/download/veranstaltungen/platzierungsiegerschau.pdf