Sieger show in Canada - Page 7

Mike,

Still looking???  I'll help you out. The requirement for disqualification as you stated dosn't exist. If you want to apply USA or WDA rules, disqualification doesn't exist there either. It's judges descretion. Looks like the information you posted about entry and participation wasn't accurate either. I believe that will be true for the other accusations also.

What we have here is a situation where you and another have called into question a judges decision based on misinformation. According to his biography in the show catalog, Mr. Seifert has been a member of the SV since 1974. He's been a breed judge since 1994, and a koermeister since 2000. Along the way he has judged 3 consecutive German sieger shows, the working females 2004 in Karlsruhe, the HGH 2005 in Ulm, and the youth males 2006 in Oberhausen. He bred one VA male and 2 other top 10 V dogs as well 5 other top 10 placing young dogs. In addition he has titled approx. 50 dogs to SchH3, IP3 and FH. He has also judged sieger shows in at least 17 other countries.

It seems to me Mr. Seifurt is more than qualified to judge a protection routine at the Canadian sieger show. He's not deserving of nor should he be subjected to the false accusations you have portrayed against him.

So lets go off subject minute and ask if we need this type of judging in this country. Let's take a quick poll. How many people have a German German Shepherd, be it a working line dog or conformation line dog that they like?  I see a few hands going up out there. Those that have one of these dogs owe this to the SV that has and continues to develop the breed through judges around the world like Mr. Seifert.

So here's the problem as I see it. While it's nice to be outspoken and this is America and we should all stand up for what's right. Part of being what's right is presenting correct information. in your post and previous post you have cited rules that do not exist and as vom Fallsview has pointed out statistics that are not correct. This problem can become a serious future problem. If we continue to discredit the judging at our sieger show, will the SV judges continue to judge here? We're setting a pattern here aren't we?

Mike, Steve, and Fred,

enough is enough.  It is embarrassing for all of us that you show such bad sportmanship. The judge dismissed oversized dogs as per regulation which is now strictly enforced. Live with it, we will see this happen quite frequently now. As to your allegation that a German handler was allowed back into the ring, I heard a completely different story. The dog was dismissed as being oversized, the handler tried to argue and the dog was dismissed and stayed dismissed, period. If you want to dispute it, please name the dog and the handler and most importantly, sign your name under your allegations. I want to wager a bet that you can't come up with the name. These allegations have got to stop. This board is read everythere. Soon, judges might not come here anymore because their integrety is questioned. And do not think for a minute that judges stand in line to come here. It is hard on them: They have to take vacation time, often find somebody to take care of their own dogs and suffer from this stress. Now, we have a few individuals who try to spread rumours because their own dogs did not  do so well.

Dogs which are breed surveyed already will not be banned, but will be discouraged from further showing. There is also a big difference between a breed survey and a show rating. Numerous judges have said that in the past and I will say it again: It is much easier to get a KKL1 on your dog than a V-rating at a show. A KKL1 does not automatically entitle you to a V-rating, ok?

Finally a word of advise to people with dogs which are hard on the borderline of being oversized: It does not help to stack the dog up and call him and entice him with a toy or ball. He will appear even taller. If you ask any longtime handler, exhibitor or breeder, they can all tell you that as well.

Louise,

I am so sorry that you are always so bitter. Your posts everywhere always suggest negativity and conspiracies. Life is precious and too short, be happy!

Chris

Like Randy, I discovered this thread later than most.  I'm proud to say that my young male, Gorbi v. Kirchenwald was V-1 in Canada and presented an impressive young progeny group (one class Sieger, one class vice-siegerin, and a bunch of VP babies).  Perhaps, had the Progeny group judging been presented in the normal fashion (i.e., before the running of the working dog classes) Gorbi's placement might have been better--perhaps not.  Personally, I was very pleased at the dog's performance in every regard.  How that performance translates into an individual placement on any given day is for the judge to decide.  

Maren, I read the letter from R. Meyer that you linked above.  Would you be able to do a full translation for the board?  I find Herr Meyer's perspective and no-nonsense common sense to be refreshing.  We might all benefit from the German National Breed Warden's wisdom. 

Gayle

Randy we will talk at New England Regionals. Louise where have i ever made a negative post? I have never slandered anyone on this site. I have always kept my post very civil and cordial.As for bad sportsmanship what about Randy insinuating that Carl mishandled his dog at the show? I know that Carl is very upset by that comment and that he is one of the best and highly regarded handlers in the U.S.A.. I do not feel that i have displayed any poor sportsmanship. In speaking with representatives from schutzhund U.S.A i was told that the dog would have been disqualified for harrasing the helper. The issues that i have raised about the show which are being overshadowed by personel attacks is how can a dog that goes V49 at the German Sieger Show and competes all year long at Regional Shows and  at this years U.S.A Show suddenly become oversized at this show when at least 1/2 dozen other judges did not have a problem with the dog? I also have a problem with a dog that is dismissed from the ring for being oversized being allowed back into the ring after the German owner enters the ring and speaks with the judge. To put it simply my issue is that the rules must apply equally for evryone. Nothing more and nothing less. If the dogs are oversized fine dismiss all of the oversized dogs do not choose based on who the owner is. That is the issue at hand. As i have stated previously i did not show any dogs at the show and was not directly affected other than seeing what i perceived as Favortism. As a friend of those that were affected i feel that i must support my friends.

Mike,

the dog did not go back into the ring. If you feel that you are talking about a different dog, when please go ahead and name the dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As to the dog biting the handler, consider this for a moment: It looked to you like it did. So, the judge and the owner asked and the helper did not have any mark on him and laughed about it. Why don't you go directly to the source and ask the helper? It might help to solve a lot of misunderstandings. As to you talking to USA, well they can say a lot all day long. It was not a USA sanctioned event. BTW, over the years I have seen a lot of dogs taking a nip at the helper at USA Sieger Shows, none were diqualified. It is what dogs do when they are excited. And that is why helpers wear protective clothing. Please, if it were your dog, or Steve's or Carl's, you would have never said a word about it! Be honest! Let it go.

As to Carl's dog: He was V-49 when? Did all this discussion and hearsay pass you guys by? The SV made this announcement last year about cracking down on oversized dogs. It was heard everywhere!! We all knew what to expect. One of my males was V-rated at the German Sieger show and here, but now he would be banned because he is a pony. Don't live in the past. Accept the fact that oversized dogs cannot be shown anymore, period! It is not fair to put judges in an awkward position by stubbornly bringing these dogs to shows.  Invest in a good Koer stick and measure the dogs before showing.

Chris (not Louise)

So, biting the helper in a non-trial situation is probably okay? The poor show dog is merely a bit hectic and re-engaging (being a tad "dirty") so long as the dog manages to out at least once within the allowed 3 commands? It this is the case, so much's the pity. I wonder how the SV would view a video of of a dog's repeatedly biting helpers.

Today, I received a private email from and exhibitor whose "oversized" dog was placed towards the end of its class--with no offer to pull the dog and leave the ring.

Chris, I'm not bitter--just not naive or blind. In fact, I happily respect the courage of those who speak out (and risk possible reprisals--especially if one dares to identify the names of people and dogs) against inequities that they have witnessed. Our democracy is founded on these freedoms and rights. To my way of thinking, constructive criticism and objective reporting of events does not constitute a belief in a "conspiracy" theory. Would you suggest that, had I live in Nazi Germany during WWII, I should have never questioned those most unusual "smokestacks"?

There will be much more effective communication if the Canadian website will consider listing all dogs that were entered in the catalog, which ones were actually shown, those pulled/absent/excused--along with their performance test ratings ("pronounced' or otherwise--T1 through T4). Adding the names of the sires/dams/owners would also be educational.

Louise,

biting the helper in any situation is not ok. Some young dogs are inexperienced and very eager to get a bite and snap at anything that moves. Again,  ask the helper!!

Your comment about Nazi Germany is truely tasteless and low-class. As a German, I prefer to not dignify that with an answer. Have a good day!

Chris

I was not at the Canadian Championships and so cannot comment on what occurred there.  Here are some excerpts I found in the policy manual and the trial rules.  Whether biting other parts of the handler's body after the "out" is considered as not performing the Out exercise, I do not make an interpretation.

Purely for edification, the following from the Canadian Trial Rules:

"This document is a translation of the rules for the conduct of working dog examinations as used in the WUSV and approved by the FCI. These rules have been adopted for use by the German Shepherd Schutzhund Club of Canada with certain amendments and variations. This document and any approved amendments shall be the official rulebook for the conduct of working dog evaluation events sanctioned by the GSSCC."

Canadian Trial Rules under Section "Disqualification:"

Randy, I spoke with the USA, They infact told me if the dog bit the helper in the hand , he should have been DQ. I can't believe you people act like this didn't happen, And none of you saw the German owner of the dog that the judge ruled to be to big. Ran into the ring and stood the dog himself so the judge could measure him again.Randy , I have spoken to you at other shows, where you complained about the judging and some of the same crap that went on here and at other shows. Ok  so let's not sugar coat this. The last thing I am is a bad sport.Look. I go to these shows to have fun, I enjoy watching these dogs perform. Not just mine but all.Even when they screw up.Like mine.Randy and anyone else.Are you telling me that all the dogs shown are 65cm, In the US, Germany.What percent of all these dogs being shown are 65cm. Very few.Ursus,Quantum, Erasmus,Quenn,Nando, so many more.Come on, Please, don't BS me and anyone else.There's a problem with size, you know it and so does everyone else.How can the SV crack down on this problem. If they measure all these dogs at the sieger show. Then tell me what dogs will be shown.How many will get kicked out.65cm is the problem. These dogs are being bred big then years ago.just like every other athlete in the world.This is normal. With better foods , and supplements this will happen.So don't you think the SV should raise  the hieght. These dogs are not going to get smaller, but more then likely bigger.I personaly never measured my dog. I never thought I had to. He was shown at 2 sieger shows, USA show, and went VP1.WDA  sieger in PA and went sc3.Size was not and issue then.Was he or some of the other dogs a threat to these other dogs ( I don't know ) I know Jaz went V 49 and Hoss went V63 in 2005 German sieger show. Now this doesn't mean that Jaz shpuld have beaten Hoss in Canada.There both beautiful dogs.Another judge might have felt different. But my point I'm making is why wasn't Jazes hieght a problem then.Ranoldo he is deffently 65 cm.right. Now copare him to all the other dogs in that show.he looked like a female compared to some.In the sieger show in PA , I showed my male Bolko. He's not a big dog. Same size as his father Wallace. Normal to small head. He looked darwfed next to other dogs.Again I'll say it so listian. If a dog was kord in Germany. Found to be the proper size. Then tell me, HOW CAN ANOTHER JUDGE GO AGAINST THE SV? Plus the judge that passed him or her.Like I said once before , then my kor report is wrong and my dog should be kk2. Right or wrong. ( I don't  know) 

Silbersee, your statement,

As to the dog biting the handler, consider this for a moment: It looked to you like it did. So, the judge and the owner asked and the helper did not have any mark on him and laughed about it. now)

It looked like to you it did. Are you kidding. the judge not only asked the helper ,but looked at his hand. I also guess you didn't see the helper keep shaking his hand, and opening and closing it from the pain.Please.

Sorry, the sequencing and fonts in my previous message got messed up when it posted.  Must be a copy/paste anomaly.