For The Masses - Page 8

FINALLY BACK TO THE SUBJECT!!

THANKS ULLI for posting the proper perspective.

I am quite sure that we all wish Kenny well with his pet dog.He is probably a GREAT pet.

Yes, many people have given Kenny good adivce and he seems to take offence at the slightest question and jumps in with totally defensive repsonses. Even where no offence was ment. While I have total respect for the war and our milatary, what does that have to do with the subject?? Yes, it seems he just wants to do what he wants no matter what. What Kenny needs to learn is that while an NZ dog is breedable in technical terms, the SV's desires for the whole ZW program is to better the hip scores. The system is set up to help in picking breeding pairs that do not have a combined ZW of more than 200.  Even if 2 NZ dogs produce a pup with good hips, that pup will not have as good of chances in producing good hips no matter what he is bred to. The SV knows this and it is not their intention to condone breeding 2 NZ dogs. ANYONE who cares about bettering the breed pays attention to hip backgrounds. It does not mean that they are promoting themselves at all. It does not mean that they are mean and arrogant. It means that they LOVE this breed and want only the best future for it.  It is fine for Kenny and his pet and we all hope for nothing but the best in the future for him. But for someone who loves the breed to consider breeding him and producing more bad hips is not someone who cares at all. Enjoy your pet and love him, train him and cherish him. But think long and hard before breeding him.

Karmen,

Are working qualities that important to throw away hip backgrounds? I would like to hear your perspective. No arguments, no back lash. Just want to know.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com

Kenny, I have to say I was surprised when I did go back and look at your previous posts and the answers you received. There were quite a few contradictions in your posts that I wasn't aware of. Before you even completed purchase of the dog you were warned about the hazards for the pups if you bred.  You also said the dog was bought for protection and were told it was unlikely, at best, that the dog was trained as represented. During this time you went from breeding one litter only, to two a year? Even though it was explained to you very patiently by Oskar1.  Mr. Dresbach has an impeccable reputation and much prestige in the breed.

In light of these previous posts, combined with the more recent ones you do seem to be of the mind that you can breed to poorer hip dogs and get predominately well hipped dogs and not contaminate the resulting bloodline with poorer hips (as your own dog is an example of). Yes, it seems you can get good hips out of poorer but, even to me, there seem to be fairly long odds on it. Especially in the long run for the lines you would perpetuate. 

You've confused me on the money issue. At one point money is no object. At another the well hipped dogs were far out of your pricerange. Believe me, I understand not having the money for the best. However, one's future actions should be determined by their present circumstances. In other words, if you can't begin with the most desired traits of the breed chances seem to be slim that you can improve the breed. It disturbs me that you don't seem to care about the probable suffering that will come immediately or subsequently in the offspring you will produce.

If I'm missing something here because of my inexperience, I will gladly apologize.  But for now this is my understanding of the standard and practices of the most respected kennels in this breed. I'm sure there are countless individuals that do not have the investment money to begin worthy lines of dogs and who would make awesome breeders otherwise. It's just one of the facts of life that there are some things we are constrained from doing because we do not have the proper resources for it.

JMHO

Kenny:   I almost dont know what to say.  FIrst thanks for serving in a war that has to be ,,,we have a vested interested in USA to keep all the fighting maniacs of terror , out of this country, and you must get them over there first , not here....there are already too many , unground things going on here , that some of you dont know about....The president and his advisors, and armed force head , know far more than we do...the media just guesses.......it dont matter   the Flag flies over my house and I want it there till I die..and I want to talk on this database till I die.too,

Doesn't matter who bashes me, its called   FREEDOM"

We will all be here , when you need us.....just keep the wife and the kids......glad she and them have a   GSD to be here with them while your gone....I woundnt sleep a wink without mine......titled or untitled.....they are all what I want and I can prove where they came from and where they are going...

THanks Kenny,,,

And Thanks to our   VICE PRES > ELECT   MISS VERONICA   K9 Kenny : one note :   when we get elected we will make the German SHepherd the        The Whitehouse choice of    Mascot"   and we will work to get his pic on the next coin that is presented to the powers that be in control......our promise....campaign WORTHY"""""    

mr. dresbach,

 to start i didn't call ANYONE a disgrace for not being in agreement with me! i called them a disgrace because of the way they act! i know everyone reading this thread, can think of a thread that they've read where someone started a ''thred'' , turned into a lynch mob! then the other side of the story came out? oooops now what? i saw some people '' man or woman up '' and appologize, i watched the i told you so' s be posted, and i watched the few that wouldn't admit the wrong and keep on bashing!

 that's what THIS post started as, but as usual, it is now turning to, well you want to breed this! i've stated over and over, i have no damn idea what i want to dpo with him! contradictions yep i sure have. my head spins and spins when this damn hip/pedigree comes up! for every person that say's it's genetic, there is another that will argue that it's mostly enviromental or one of the many '' ideas'' on what actually causes it!

can anyone here prove 100% to me that there is a link of any 1 thing that is the deciding factor of HD? genetics? enviroment? i've even read studies on a dog's diet has an impact on hd!  so since i'm undecided! i say have your opinoins on what ''he will or won't do. heck we can start a pool! you can all throw in and bet on is he a 'goodguy', actually learning, or just another here to make money? i bet all you here on this board can only agree to disagree on this subject! now about the zw? is it tried and true? if i breed a dog with a 75 to a dog with a 74, what are my odds of producing an hd puppy or puppies? now is there proof to back this up or is it another theory?  if understood this ''system'' correctly, the lower the # the better. which is great, but the #'s move depending on what the dog's produce correct? so if the dog produces a puppy with hd how much does it go up? if there are 2 hd puppies does it go up x2 or exponentially?

debby, '' It is fine for Kenny and his pet and we all hope for nothing but the best in the future for him. But for someone who loves the breed to consider breeding him and producing more bad hips is not someone who cares at all.''

like i said show me! because i don't understand, is it all genetic? if not what percentage is? post those replies.  i'm a reason person, there has to be a reason, or reasons!  so what are they, seems' some think it is all genetic, if so how do 2 excelent dogs produce hd? there are no bad genes in these dogs! 10 generations of a1's and a2's where does the hd come from? cause i bet there is a dog produced by this dog that has it!

answer this and i'll tell you if i'll breed my dog and ''destroy the breed''

sincerely, kenny

Hi Kenny,

My suggestion would be for you to do some studying on the subject of hip dysplasia rather than trying to argue something you really don't know much about.  There are lots of articles about hip dysplasia and what the current scientific thinking on it is with regards to how much is genetic vs environmental.  Most scientists will tell you HD is almost certainly genetic; however, it can be exacerbated by certain environmental issues. 

This will be my one and only post on this subject because frankly I think your posts on this thread have been aggressive, rude and obnoxious.

Good luck with your dog, I'm glad he is working out for you and your wife.

Well, this is not coming from a breeder but a gambler.  Just from the perspective of the odds let's have a look. Let's say you have dog A with ten generations of no hd and you get an hd pup; then you have dog B who's pedigree is rife with hd and you get an hd pup. Now, my money's going to ride that the dog A pup is going to be either recessive gene or enviornmental and dog B pup is going to be hd from genetics. And while there is a lot of controversy over the causes of hd most believe environment or genetics are the "big two".  I'm also not going to be putting money on the offspring of the dog B pup either. Statistically it just wouldn't be a prudent bet.

Kenny, it's not even a borderline call. You made the point yourself. If you can have minimal hd in a line and other lines with it throughout the pedigree it's possible to minimize the hd. By your theory that all odds are the same regardless of lines and scores there would be NO lines with minimal amounts. It's the odds, Kenny. Think about the odds. You've played poker right? Same thing it needs to be a calculated risk.

And, really, no matter how belligerent your posts get it's not going to change the odds. Sorry.

Kenny,

You have been given most of the links and information already. Yes, there is some controversy over how much percentage is genetic and how much is brought on by environmental extreems.  But I don't think there is ANYONE out there that would say that genetics do not play ANY role! One only has to look at history to see what is commonly produced by dogs with bad hips and dogs with good hips from bad backgrounds. In fact the hip production history is usually much worse than what is seen, because of all the progeny that were not sent in for anaylsis, because they had bad hips.  I myself would like to see a system that takes all of the progeny produced and all of the progeny that have had hips graded and come up with some kind of figure for us to look at from that perspective. I think that would tell us far more than just a ZW alone.  If you look far enough you CAN find people who list those kind of statistics, but there is no rating system in place to help with that. As far as 2 excellent dogs producing an occasional HD... that is just a fact of life.  No one dog forms completely perfectly and the chance that for whatever reason a puppy is not formed correctly out of good parents is because of that.  Chance.  Just like any other congenetal problems, such as downs syndrom coming from an old egg that just does not have all it needs(or in this case has extra). But what those of us who care try to do, is stack the deck for success.  2 excellent hip'd dogs stack the deck FOR good hips. 2 NZ dogs stack the deck for bad hips. There are variables in this as one excellent dog may have a questionable background and be an exception in relatively good hip history. Where as one NZ dog may have been the exception in a relatively good hip background. We can only do the best we can with what information we can research about each dog. Many people have LOVED everything about a young dog and have been heartbroken with the hip results.  Responsible breeders get over that and either keep the dog as a pet or send it to the best non-breeding home they can find.  Most of us love our dogs dearly, but that does not mean they should be bred. Which leads me to say that no ONE dog is going to ruin the breed.  You can breed your dog here in the USA and no one is going to stop you.  That is your call. But I want you to think long and hard about your decision and about the people that will be getting those puppies and what heartache they may have to go through after bonding with and loving their wonderful dog,  only to find that he is in pain and there is nothing they can afford to do about it. Hope that helps some!

Good luck!

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

Sorry!

This sentense should have read... "

There are variables in this as one excellent dog may have a questionable background and be an exception in relatively BAD hip history.

I'm still not over the sentence in Trexshep's first post "Not gonna lie, if I don't sell puppies I'll lose my house in 6 months".  You are right Trexshep, people do not check each other out for hips, elbows, teeth,etc. However they have  been given a brain with a capacity for logic, reasoning, critical thinking and free will . Unfortunately dogs not having the gift of free will are at the mercy of mankind to do the right thing by them and we all know how that goes............millions of dogs and cats in shelters, euthanized or abandoned all over the country because someone has to "make the rent" or some other insufficient excuse breeding. Just because you have a right to do whatever you want with your dogs doesn't mean it is the RIGHT thing to do to breed so you can make your house payment. If one is the edge financially how can you properly care for a litter of pups and afford to take the time to find proper homes?  Just my opinion.........otherwise you sound like a great guy. 

Kenny,

Thanks for your service!  Enjoy your dogs.  They sound loved and well cared for.  Stay safe.

Sue-Ann