P.E.T. G.S.D - Page 1

Pedigree Database


by beetree on 30 October 2007 - 03:10

All breeders seem to have these pesky little critters pop up in their litters, neverminding about their impeccable pedigrees. Just which breeders are acceptable to obtain one of these by-products of imperfection, should the human be the lazy type to want a companion and tear-licker for the kids and family? As the GSD was rated 3rd most popular dog breed for the past two years running, I would find it interesting to hear about this aspect of breeding and the truth of the economy regarding the breeding of purebred dogs for the sport vs. the family and really what I suspect, is both!


by sueincc on 30 October 2007 - 03:10

To me, these are the dogs that should fulfill the pet purchasers.  In a perfect world, there would be a waiting list for these dogs rather than animal shelters full of the dogs specifically bred as "pet quality".    Of course, even the best breeders (show & working) will have puppies that are "pet only" quality.  I would love to see a world where getting a GSD was not easy thing to do,  a world where our breed was a rarity in shelters.  Unfortunately, unscrupuolous breeders are more than happy our breed is so popular, they have a market for their crap dogs.  Does anyone really think any of us believe that bull about breeding "pet quality" on purpose for the "average family"?  Please.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing, but my rant is over.



by Bucko on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

There is nothing more honorable than breeding medium-low drive, sane, biddable, naturally protective dogs who are gentle with children, safe with animals, and patient with the many boring and stressful moments of life as a family dog.  The kind is out of his crate for good by ten months, and rarely causes trouble for the next ten years.

Dogs who are a byproduct of  efforts to meet working or show requirements sometimes come close, but often they are special needs dogs.  (High drive but weak nerve perhaps the worst.)  They are not PET quality.  They are something else.  How could a word that is to should describe a dog good enough for your little children mean anything other than the most demanding standard for a dog?

Too bad the dog community doesn't use language honestly.  Breeders who need to dump their failures have named them pets, but while their motivation is obvious, their justification is weak.

by beetree on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

sueincc, Bear with me, I am a bit of the devil's advocate on this, I admit! I don't understand your statement, where you wish, "...getting a GSD was not (an) easy thing to do, a world where our breed was a rarity in shelters." You then imply all "crap dogs" come from unscrupulous dealers. Please do try on the other shoe, if you will; are all planned breeding of dogs going to be show quality, or schutzhound competition dogs? I have a whole different perspective about the GSD and the rescue scenario. I even wrote about it once way back when, did anyone read it or remember it? It was called "A Short History of the Rescue Dog over time" or something like that. What really happens is, unsuspecting do good, nice-type people, adopt a red-line "mankiller", and without a hoot of training manage to adapt to the unruly dog, or better yet, manage to get the dog to behave. Never, however, without considerable damage to property or lifestyle. So when I say I love my GSD, but haven't the time or perhaps the inclination to "title" said pedigreed dog, am I always relegated to being equal to the scum on the bottom of my shoe?


by sueincc on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

Sorry, I must diagree.  First off, not all show line puppies in a litter are show quality.  These dogs make great pets.  Not all working line pups are meant for trials.  In fact, most working line dogs make excellent pets for active families. Unfortunately those who breed "pet quality" are usually the ones who know nothing about drives or breeding and end up dumping nerve bags on the unsuspecting public.


by sueincc on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

First, I have had high drive, working line GSDs for the past 30 years.  (yes I know, the weird magic number 30!)  I have only seen the "red line, man killer" very rarely.  This is not what working line GSDs are.  In fact, most are prey monsters, not man stoppers & there is a huge, huge  difference. 

I believe the overwhelming majority of "crap dogs" do come from unscrupulous pet breeders.  People who only care about profit.  These people don't give a damn about the breed,  and their knowledge of how to successfully breed dogs is limited to "I like my boy dog & I like my girl dog and so do my friends,  so I'm gonna sell puppies"

I feel very strongly that the American Show Shepherd barely resembles the true German Sheperd Dog.  I think the problems in this country with the breed occurred because we did not listen to the SV.  I know how hard good breeders work to do everything right, I know how expensive it is for them, but they do it out of love for the breed.  I want to do everything I can to support this type of breeder.

I absoloutly DO NOT think a dog is "less than" if it is not titled. There are a ton of really great untitled, fun GSDs.   I just think that if someone is going to breed this particular breed, then yes, the dog needs to be breed surveyed, which requires a title.


by sueincc on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

I'm sorry, I forgot to explain my statment about shelters & waiting lists.  It's wishful thinking, that one one day no GSDs will end up in shelters, whether it be because there is a great home out there for each one or because there are fewer being bred !!

by Do right and fear no one on 30 October 2007 - 04:10

Is a GSD that excells in the sport of Schutzhund, more desired than a GSD that excells in being a family protector, companion and pet?

If you mate two Schutzhund titled dogs together, are you more likely to get progeny that will excell in being a family member or are you more likely to get pups that will excell in the sport of schutzhund?

If you mate two proven excellent family companion GSD's together, are you more likely to get schutzhund prospects or more likely to get family companion prospects?

If you are breeding high drive, DDR or whatever dogs, and some just don't "have it" and are classified as "pet quality", are these "failures" just as likely to be too drivey or not drivey enough?

You are breeding titled show lines and some will be failures that will be classified as "pet quality".  Are these pet quality pups that are shy, or lack nerve, or downright dangerous to trust with your kids, put down, kept caged all of their lives,  or sold as pet quality?

In a perfect world, some believe that only working lines should be bred, after earning and proving their worth to be bred.  These same people think that titled show lines are crap.  Just one rung above American show lines.  But they believe that the dogs that fail to earn and prove their worth to be bred, make fine family companions, protectors, and pets.

If the AKC had a testing procedure for dogs that are "good citizens" (did not fight with other dogs unless attacked, etc.), "good family companions" (this would include obedience, etc), and had "good natural protection instincts" (meaning that the dog did not flea when confronted and barked when it heard a sound at night, etc), would that be good enough to breed?  If the two dogs someone bred passed those three tests, would they be worthwhile to breed?  Or, is it all about biting and tracking?

I'm just asking.


by sueincc on 30 October 2007 - 05:10

If the AKC had a testing procedure for dogs that are "good citizens" (did not fight with other dogs unless attacked, etc.), "good family companions" (this would include obedience, etc), and had "good natural protection instincts" (meaning that the dog did not flea when confronted and barked when it heard a sound at night, etc), would that be good enough to breed?

Not by my way of thinking.  It's all been very nicely laid out by the SV, why not check that out?  If you did, you would find there is a lot more to it than schutzhund titles.  Otherwise, go with the American Show Shepherd.....please !

by beetree on 30 October 2007 - 05:10

sueincc, My personal experience in adopting rescue dogs in the NE, (a place means nothing now, really, as deathrow dogs are shipped to shelters elsewhere,) for instance, Tennessee dogs are trucked to CT, regularly to our no-kill shelters. But my question to you is one of economy: The demand is: third ranked in popularity, and your answer is to wait for the know-it-all breeders to release the rejects, kindly called "pets"; how can this work? And how can you be so sure of your pronouncement that nerve bags come from BYB? They can just as easily come from purchasers who bought more dog than they could handle and helped them to be that way. How many breeders really want to take back what they sold as a pet or a failed shutzhund prospect? For the breeder, there is always another ideal of a litter on the horizon, "the holy pup" perhaps, that one step closer to the ideal? And then there are those in the litter that show some fault with a bite, or tail carriage, or perhaps not the right color. And these the breeder are reminded not to become attached to, for fear of being "a collector" of GSD's not a breeder*. (*Sorry I borrowed that from a previous breeders post.) Not that this person shares any of my thoughts! So all I'm saying is give us an economic model to follow re: puppy production, be it noble or not, that gives you the joy of owning a GSD, which I'm sure you title, and herd sheep with, and at the same time, gives me the best companion, protector and tear-licker I can find for me and my kids.


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