P.E.T. G.S.D - Page 8

someone has really missed the point, the drive courage, loyalty, trainability, aggression etc that made a good herding dog is what makes a good schH dog as well.  The two are hand in hand, not exlusive.  They had to be able to stare down and if need be take down a ram that was much bigger then they were.  They also had to protect from predators, animal and human alike

The system in place is very, very good, some of the people using it to their own benefit are what make it not work, or the people that think they just know better.  I find it funny that a persons "hobby" can lend them more knowledge than the vision of a man that spent his whole life creating the breed and reputation most of us know nothing about, yet talk all day about it.

Once again it comes down to individuals. Some GSDs are more suited to one type of work more than others. But to generalize that all they should do is non aggressive work doesn't really seem to hold up in the long run. They weren't the inventors of search and rescue and are also in the minority for guide dogs. And even in SAR today, especially here there has to be hardness or they will give up on their job when they go through areas that are all prickly pear and cholla cactus. I've seen where "soft" dogs have simply sat down and given up because of it. If you are going to breed a dog with a work ethic I believe you have GOT to have a degree of hardness.

As for herding I would guess they would need the "attack" mode and hardness to fight off predators that would kill the sheep he was herding?

Not only would the Saint Bernard prove to be a worthy companion animal for the Monks, but it was also discovered that these muscular dogs also possessed an uncanny ability to be able to discover paths in the snow and, with their incredible sense of smell, they were quite adept at finding people who had become lost during storms and avalanches.  Before long, the Monks and their large dogs would be known throughout the world for their ability to save lives.  In fact, during the 3 centuries that they have been used as rescue dogs, the Saint Bernard are documented as having saved more than 2,000 human lives.  It’s no wonder why they are known as the life-saver dogs. dogs-central.com.

But you were right about the guide dogs. The first formalized program (though not the first guide dogs) was in Germany after WW I. Naturally they used German dogs. But, according to Guide Dogs for the Blind the most suited breed today is the Labrador but there are also GSDs.

I would guess they would need the "attack" mode and hardness to fight off predators that would kill the sheep he was herding?

Sorry zdog. Must have been posting at the same time. Didn't mean to over run your point.

The Ol'LineRebel    JUST NAILED IT !!!!!!!!!   1000 Cheers to you !!   and you said it all with Class !!!

Back in the Day,  the GSD started as a herder,  Moved UP to Military Service, Moved UP to Seeing Eye,   Moved UP since then to SAR, Personal Protection, K-9, Detection, and LASTLY SPORT !!!   The SPORT is NOT a job, merely a TEST... 

I beleive it's called Moving Forward or defined as EVOLUTION... Versatility is KEY to Evolving !!!!!

There are still those GSD's that are ACTIVELY Herding today,  and THOSE dogs have a JOB,  there are those that are K-9's those dogs have a JOB,  SAR dogs have a JOB,  some GSD's are even reading partners for children (there is one here in our town)  That dog has a VERY important JOB,   SchH Title dog,  has a SPORT Test !!!   

But, as long as I am over running your point, may I point out a pet peeve of mine with horses? It makes me crazed when some one goes out and buys a hot horse like an Arabian and then makes it their life's work to turn it into a Tenesee Walker. And they get all frustrated because they can't make them walk sedately forgetting that the damn breed was invented to run all day through desert sands. If you want a Tenessee Walker-BUY ONE! Don't try to make one out of an Arabian!

Same with dogs.

Uh.....evolution doesn't involve human intervention in selective breeding......

All of those you listed involve hardness in some form in order to complete their job. You can't rely on a nerve bag if you're blind and live in New York City.

I agree those traits from shepherding can translate into guard/attack.  von Stephanitz gives some good reasons why.  However, my point is the EMPHASIS has been so much on attack training for some 70 years, that the focus has been on "hardness" - and there are DEGREES of hardness.  My point was more than likely, the average sheep-herder GS was probably less naturally aggressive than today's average attack-oriented GS (please noone start with any "you have to train it" either more, or less, aggressive as opposed to bred-in aggression).  Many dogs are good STABLE reliable "pets" despite high degrees of assertion bred in, but you have to admit, the more you attempt to get that "high degree" focused on "hardness", the more likely you are to have alot of those with "too much" who are a real detriment to the GS and dogs in general - they are unstable, and too dominant, and just plain too willing to use aggression for problem-solving, etc.

I really don't know enough about details in SchH at all, but by simple observations and knowing something about the history of the breed, I can't help but come to these thoughts.

Please, let's not forget that this dog started as a herder, and very early on he also virtually invented (certainly INNOVATED) "search/rescue" and blind-guiding (the origin of general "service dog").  And all of that is what surely made the GS hugely popular, the image that they could do anything, not simply attack people.

Please excuse Caps because I use it for quick-easy emphasis typing on the fly, not "yelling".

"Once again it comes down to individuals. Some GSDs are more suited to one type of work more than others. But to generalize that all they should do is non aggressive work doesn't really seem to hold up in the long run."

I said VERSATILITY - they should ALSO be required to get HGH, perhaps, e.g.  I did not say "ALL THEY SHOULD DO".  I said perhaps the emphasis should move away from aggressive-based work, to ensure the dog is still VERSATILE and more likeable.

Versatility is a trait I adore, and it's 1 of the prime reasons I fell in love with the GS (along with good natural looks).  I love versatile dogs, horses, cars.  I prefer a versatile item over a Johnny 1-Note.

"They weren't the inventors of search and rescue"

Maybe not (and I said "virtually), but they were the innovators.  It was GS who shot various forms of dog work to enormous heights that people actually noticed.

"and are also in the minority for guide dogs."......"But, according to Guide Dogs for the Blind the most suited breed today is the Labrador but there are also GSDs."

I was talking that they WERE, not ARE ("today"), the innovators and virtual inventors of the genre.  Notice too, those tenses "were" vs. "are" - how did we get to the point that German Shepherds blew the concept of guiding humans wide open, and now they're hardly used for guiding blind (much less hearing or other handicapped-impaired)?  Ever wonder about that?  What happened to the GS that it's less and less preferred for all this work that he himself invented?  (Again, pardon the expression, but for all intents & purposes, it's true.)

'And even in SAR today, especially here there has to be hardness or they will give up on their job when they go through areas that are all prickly pear and cholla cactus. I've seen where "soft" dogs have simply sat down and given up because of it. If you are going to breed a dog with a work ethic I believe you have GOT to have a degree of hardness.'

I agree there has to be "hardness".  I'm talking degrees, again.  If you have a dog that doesn't like brambles - well, that's pathetic.  I don't know many dogs like that at all.  That's an extreme example of "softness", and I'm NOT talking about making WIMPS.  I'm not talking in 1s and 0s.  I'm talking about a dog closer to the middle rather than far to the right on the scale of "hardness" where he isn't flexible, sometimes regarding aggression used indiscriminantly, sometimes just maybe "too much focus" vs. being able to switch gears when needed, as an intelligent, INDEPENDENT dog who doesn't need a handler to always tell him what exactly to do to stop his obsession on 1 thing.

'As for herding I would guess they would need the "attack" mode and hardness to fight off predators that would kill the sheep he was herding?'

Yes (or at least be vigilant of predators), but their "prey" drive is much more driven by the animals that are scared and want to run away - not the wolf who's more like he and more likely to stand ground - the wolf AND the dog are natural "predators".  This prey drive can be so heavy th

allabout, please note again, I don't think any of us are looking for "nerve bags" or "soft dogs"; I think that's a strawman argument.  I myself am asking for a tweaking down on the emphasis on making a dog as "hard" as possible - there's really no reason for that unless your goal is simply attacking.

Yes, they should be controllable by command, but really, the dog should be self-controllable.  He shouldn't be a "pit bull" naturally intent on tearing into and holding onto the victim.  I'm afraid the emphasis on getting a dog who will attack just on command leads naturally to more out-of-control aggressive dogs who give the whole breed a bad name.  And thus, harder to control the gene pool to keep the over-the-top genes out.

Which brings me to my next question:

ANYONE EVER ASK THEMSELVES WHY THE BELGIAN MALINOIS IS ENCROACHING MORE AND MORE ON "GERMAN SHEPHERD JOBS"?

Is this going to be just like the past:

GS intended as herding dogs - now ignored as they're too aggressive and lost the instinct.

GS create Service Dogs (blind guiding) - now replaced by Labs and Goldens because they're too aggressive or too unstable.

GS create search functions for drugs/bombs - now replaced by Labs and Goldens because they're too aggressive or too unstable.

Now:  GS create police/military functions - now replaced by Belgian Malinois because they're too aggressive, too unstable, and too unhealthy (hips, DM, allergies)?

BTW, speaking of SAR - the MAJORITY of dogs at the WTC for 9/11 efforts WERE "German Shepherds" - of ALL stripes.  There were "German" dogs, working and "show", "American" dogs, "pet" dogs, etc.  They are all just fine working dogs from what I could see.  Being "American" or "pet" didn't make those dogs too soft to walk through hot sharp rubble.

Ol'Line, You have a great way of getting your point across without bashing anyone.  These are exactly the points I attempted to make before being lumped in with "you guys" and "those who are runing the breed".  I'm not breeding or ruining anything, I'm trying to allow my dog to be all he CAN be.  If that ends up being "just a pet" then so be it and a good pet he'll be.  I think he has much more to offer but he's young and still has a long way to go.  But I'm the one who's working him and building a strong bond/relationship.  Rationality goes a long way when people are here to learn as much as they can without being called names and/or bashed for asking a question.  Thank you for bringing class to an otherwise crude bashing thread!