P.E.T. G.S.D - Page 9

Seems to me that if you breed for decades, with the intent of hardening up your dogs, then you will go higher and higher (harder and harder) in that regard.  It defies logic that it would not.  Sure there will be some soft dogs in the bunch, but overall, the litters will continue to have a higher percentage of hard dogs, and the hardness will continue to increase.  Where does it stop?

If ya'll think that you can create a dog robot that you can turn on and off with the flip of a switch (verbal command), then you are whistling in the dark, and don't have a clue about actions and the subsequent consequences of your actions.

As Ol' Rebel alluded too, why do you think that GSD's are barred from some locations (we all remember the recent postings about campgrounds that did not allow GSD's), with some insurance companies raising premiums or disallowing the coverage of GSD's in their policies.  Some countries do not even allow, by law, schutzhund sports (as indicated above).  The list goes on and on.  Why is this happening?  Is the GSD just misunderstood, or have occurences proven that this constant emphasis on hardness and nerve in the breed, produced these results?  It will not be long until biting sports are banned just about everywhere, except maybe in Germany and a few countries near there.

People keep harping on "breeding for the betterment of the breed" without realizing that breeding excellent family companions is for the betterment of the breed, not breeding for a better bite.  Breeding for a better bite is actually a detriment to the breed.  If you think that you can continually breed with the goal of producing better biters, more aggressive (who doesn't brag about their dog when they have a video of it doing a leaping, flying, full grip bite) attackers, then you are fooling yourself if you think that you can also make it a pet around your and other peoples kids and pets.  I have news for you, they ain't robots and make mistakes.  Sure, you can point to statistics that show that most dog bites are from non trained dogs, but hey, there are a zillion non trained dogs out there and just a few thousand trained dogs.  Try to get a condo in upscale neighborhood and level with the monagement that you have two Sch III GSD's.  Yea, good luck with that.  There is a reason.  You might say it is ignorance of what schutzhund trained dogs are all about, and you may be right, but you can say that all you want and it won't change the outcome.  Bite training sports are on the way out.  Family companions with the ORIGINAL natural protectiveness of the GSD (of most breeds) is the upcoming way.

Like it or not, this is the way of the world today.  Family companion with a knack for natural family and property protectiveness.  Not trained and accentuated through training "hardness" with an all out attack switch.  If I remember correctly, it was spook101 awhile back that stated something along these lines, "if you are counting on your dog to save your butt, then you are in trouble.  Get a gun and learn how to use it".

I don't want to be the grinch that stole Christmas, but the times are a-changing.  I and those like me will win in the end.  The GSD will cease to exist if not bred for a more congenial family companion.  It would have already ceased to exist if not for "the change" that Stephanitz instituted upon realization setting in that herding was on the way out.  Now, sadly perhaps, another realization is setting in I believe, and another change for the existense of the breed (in the long run, not today) will need to take place.  Sorry.

I have to say I disagree 100% and leave it at that.  I think addressed most of what was just said in a previous post.

i SURE LIKE THIS GOOD PUPPY  ...WATCH OUT  'DONT MESS WITH    TEXAS......

ALL SCHUTZHUND DOGS  CANNOT BE AROUND CHILDREN, AND ALL PODIUM SHCUTZHUND WINNERS CANNOT BE AROUND CHILDREN, OR IN A HOME , WITH OUT WATCHING THEM VERY CLOSELY........

BEEN AROUND   LOTS OF THEM AND ONE PARTICULAR ONE,,,,,I WAS TOLD BY THE OWNER....BECARE OF HIM,,,HE WILL GET YU IF YOU DO THE WRONG MOVE.

NOW HOW AM I SUPPOSE TO KNOW WHAT THE WRONG MOVE WAS WHEN I WAS IN HIS COMPANY AND HE WAS LOOSE IN A 4 ACRE PROPERTY...

I HAVE BEEN IN MANY CLUB MEETINGS ALL OVER TEXAS ,, AND   BEEN TOLD   AND HEARD WITH MY OWN EARS...DONT GET NEAR HIM      DONT GET NEAR HER......TITLED SCHUTZHUND DOGS....

SO, THE STATEMENT THAT   SCHUTZHUND TITLES    MEAN YOUR DOG CAN BE AROUND CHILDREN OR IN A FAMILY SITUATION  DOESNT HOLD TRUE

The caps are for my convenience of typing fast,,,I am not yelling  ,,,  It is the way a gsd is raised and titled  , that makes the dog capable of being a family domained dog.....so  hats off to      SPARROW   AND   GSD2727 AND OLE REBEL

AND       ILUVMIGSD i REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME ON HERE AND THE HATEFUL RESPONSE YOU GOT BECAUSE YOUR DOG WAS NOT FROM TITLED AND YOU GOT IT GIVEN TO YOU..........MY SENTIMENTS TO    SPARROW AND ZDOG..AND GSD2727     SAID IT ALL    FOR ME   ....THANKS...

My point was more than likely, the average sheep-herder GS was probably less naturally aggressive than today's average attack-oriented GS

I think this is a guess that is unsubstantiated so is impossible to debate. I know ranch dogs, any ranch dog, are very committed defenders of their property. I can't imagine the original vision of this breed to be dog's without the aggression to defend sheep and property owners to the death. I do, however, find it to be along the lines of a pioneer in hostile territory would be more refined that a city dwelling person of today.  Herding sheep and cattle is very demanding on a dog's character and yes aggression levels when needed. I also wonder how you came to the conclusion that these dogs would attack sheep instead of guard them? Is this something you have observed?

Many dogs are good STABLE reliable "pets" despite high degrees of assertion bred in, but you have to admit, the more you attempt to get that "high degree" focused on "hardness", the more likely you are to have alot of those with "too much" who are a real detriment to the GS and dogs in general - they are unstable, and too dominant, and just plain too willing to use aggression for problem-solving, etc.

Look at the average American Show Shepherd total nerve bags because they breed any hardness out of them. Nervous wrecks, these dogs.

I really don't know enough about details in SchH at all, but by simple observations and knowing something about the history of the breed, I can't help but come to these thoughts.

What the heck does that even mean? If you don't know about it how can you draw a conclusion?

Once again- the reason the German Shepherd was used for the first organized guide dog movement was because that movement began in Germany.  Germany---German Shepherd. Once the movement reached out of Germany it was found that other breeds excelled because they had less protectiveness.  And once more-it wasn't the GSD that invented the guide dog idea it was the GERMANS.  The GSD was simply their native dog.

And let me make the math really clear here-the St. Bernard was doing SAR for 3 centuries before the GSD was ever dreamed of.

I said VERSATILITY - they should ALSO be required to get HGH, perhaps, e.g.  I did not say "ALL THEY SHOULD DO".  I said perhaps the emphasis should move away from aggressive-based work, to ensure the dog is still VERSATILE and more likeable.

If you breed hardness out of a dog it will not be able to do the work of herding. There are HGH dog owners on this board who have posted that their dogs are Sch titled. Just don't remember who it was. I'm sure it could be found. Ridiculous to assert that they couldn't.

I agree there has to be "hardness".  I'm talking degrees, again.  If you have a dog that doesn't like brambles - well, that's pathetic.  I don't know many dogs like that at all.  That's an extreme example of "softness", and I'm NOT talking about making WIMPS. 

Ok, let's just get to reality here. Cactus in this area is not "brambles" tee..heee.. Cactus spines here will put a hole through a truck tire.  Cactus here will go totally through a vibram sole and into your boot. Cholla cactus in particular falls off in links that are scattered for yards from the cactus itself. they will actually stick into your boots, clothes and skin in several places at once and have a sort of skin abrassive poison that will make your whole leg feel like it's on fire. Most places in the low desert are so thick with all of these you can barely walk without having to weave to get through. It's called a cactus forest.   No, it is not an example of "extreme softness" that a dog can't keep going on a search like this. It takes a dog with extreme hardness to keep going AND to keep working in it. Brambles???

ANYONE EVER ASK THEMSELVES WHY THE BELGIAN MALINOIS IS ENCROACHING MORE AND MORE ON "GERMAN SHEPHERD JOBS"?

Maybe people like you guys want to breed all the hardness out and "tame" the GSD into being a Lab?

Yellow, you said you've been around these dogs for 20 years and you still judge every Sch dog based on a few? Weird. Same for Taz. I can't imagine judging every dog based on one. silly.

Maybe you guys don't get the concept of hard; because you can't seem to see it in any concept except as aggression. Not the same. I would assume that would be obvious. Guess not.

IF bite training sports are on the way out it's because society is becoming more frightened and weak every day. Don't let kids play with toy guns. Don't let kids play tackle- only tag football. Don't let a kid defend himself when he's attacked. And it carries over into adulthood. People are afraid. Afraid of pain. Afraid of conflict. Afraid of being rough and tumble. Just plain afraid. The childhood most of us lived and played is light years away from kids today. Instead of football in a dirt lot and paying no attention to scrapes and bumps you've got kids playing tag football only on grass and crying with every scrape. When did we all get so wimpy? Do we want to ban biting sports so we can be urbane and sophisticated? Is it banned in other countries because of the dogs that do it or the people that fear it? 

 Family companions with the ORIGINAL natural protectiveness of the GSD (of most breeds) is the upcoming way. 

How do we know what the measure of natural protectiveness was? Pure conjecture. If a dog was designed to protect home and family and livestock it would certainly be harder than the breedings being advocated here.

I guess you are right A-Dog.  I also thought some things were obvious.  Such as the fact that many of us here are not necessarily in favor of the GSD "softening", but are facing reality in the fact that the world is as it is, not as you want it to be.  Sopciety is in fact much softer now than before, and the "before" was much softer than the one "before" it, and so on and so on.

We could go on and on, and each side will have anecdotal evidence of their point, and be able to make a decent argument for or against any portion or part of the big picture illustrated here.

"We" all grew up with those cuts and bruises as you did and we are not soft.  The present generation of young people are the soft ones in general, except for those brave men and women in the military and other similar type jobs, but even they are softer than the previous military.  But I digress.

Hardness and aggressiveness are indeed too different things.  The hardness that "we" want instilled and improved, is the hardness mentioned by others above.  Whe the dogs can take the rigors of being poked and prodded by kids who don't know better yet.  It is about being able to take the bad moods of its master.  It is indeed about being able to perform the job of facing and staring down the strange man on the front sidewalk, staring at your home and your dog.  It is the hardness of not running away when a coyote comes into your yard to get your chickens or possibly your child.  etc. etc.

By the way, just as a parting shot.  I don't know about you or others, but my "measure" of the Original natural protectiveness of a dog, has been illustrated many times in movies, TV shows, in books, and in person with my own dogs and the dogs of others I grew up with.  Sure, they were movie props, Rin Tin Tin, Bullet, Lassie, The dog from Call of the Wild, my own dog "Blitzen", etc., but they set the measure.  They were the yardstick.  None of them were trained or tested (except of course the movie dogs that were trained for the stunts) (but in their imginary life, they were just family pets).  If you search through history about dog heroes, you will find some military trained dogs, and you will find some police trained dogs that were genuine heroes, but the vast majority of dog heroes have been and still are, family companions.  Everything from actually dialing 911, pulling kittens from a burning building, traveling 1000 miles to find their family, or fighting a threatening stray dog that came near their extended family (your child).  These are not movie actors, they are real stories.  They are easy to look up.

Call me silly if you want, but my measure has and always will be Lassie and Rin Tin Tin.  Every dog I get is compared to them, in my mind.  Silly yes. I agree, but so much more satisfying when your human friend has just died and you are really down and in despair, then you dog comes over and lies at your feet, without demanding attention, jumping up on you or wanting to play.  He is "just there" for you.  A high drive, working line, schutzhund trained dog doing that, well, that would knock me off my feet.

While I am at it, I have another question.  I have asked many over the past year of schutzhund participants and hardly ever get an answer, but I have another.  Exactly what is schutzhund for?  I have heard that it is a measureing stick for the betterment of the breed, blah, blah, blah.  But what I have not heard is the real answer.  I believe the real answer is more along the lines of a gun or a big car.  If you have any psychology schooling in your past, you will know what I am referring to.  I believe that it is about "Power", not about betterment of the breed.  Otherwise why would the

 A high drive, working line, schutzhund trained dog doing that, well, that would knock me off my feet.

A-Fear,  I would have to ask how many of these you have actually been around then?  My friend has at least 6 or 7 in the house all the times. Mostly Czch and DDR but also some very hard W. German Showlines. He has that many in kennels and rotates them between house dogs and kennel dogs about once a week. Some of these are his and some of them are sent to him  for training. He trains for the military and private corporations but also private people. Sweetest, funniest clowns you have ever seen. when not working. And when introduced and invited in. I love his dogs. My daughter loves his dogs. I have spent many days among his dogs, as have my kids, and never has there been the slightest provocation. My friends children were raised with these dogs running in and out of the house and there are pictures of so many dogs (Yes SCH1, 11, 111, and military in training dogs) on her bed with her all you can see is her arm! Perhaps you could spend more time with a breeder of stable high drive dogs who has raised them as intended:home AND work.

I have heard that it is a measureing stick for the betterment of the breed, blah, blah, blah.  But what I have not heard is the real answer.

Well, it's fairly obvious that you feel you didn't get an answer because it wasn't the one you wanted. If people are consistantly giving the same answer to a question perhaps it is correct and you are wrong. Especially if they have actual first hand experience in the sport and you don't?  Sometimes the answer is just the answer whether you agree with it or not.

Uh......Okay.......

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  Your answers are the correct ones, because you have all the experience with "those" kinds of dogs, and I just don't get it and will never get it, because I do not have the experience with those kinds of dogs.  Does that sum it up pretty much?

"Sweetest, funniest clowns you have ever seen. when not working".

Yep, that is what some said about Mike Tyson too.

"Sometimes the answer is just the answer whether you agree with it or not.".

Yep, I bet that is exactly what everyone was telling ole' Chris Columbus.  The world is flat and if you sail that way, you will fall off.

I have trained real dogs for real jobs.  Not for sports.  I am telling you they are guns with the hammers cocked back.  You could have a gun on your table, cocked and ready to fire, but it will never go off until that unexpected thing happens.

Look A-Dog:  My point is a philosophical point.  A concept.  Dogs constantly, over generations, bred to be harder (not talking hardiness), more easily trained to bite, more nervy and excitable, will, over time, become exactly that.  Better and badder at what they were bred to do.  If that is what you and others want, go for it.

I and others want a GSD that is bred for its compatibility to interact and be with a family, without that specialized training.  Just obedience.  We want litters of pups that are, by and large, the same and predictable as to their temperments.  That fit right in with families.  Yes, we could just get labs or poodles, but we want the GSD just as you want a GSD.  Why can you have your desire and we can not?  You and some others want this:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/47171.html

or

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/46177.html

These may or may not be titled dogs, but isn't this the "look"  and action that every schutzhund trainer would relish from his or her dog?
That is why the show lines are more popular, higher priced, etc.  They are more desirable.  Many only get them titled to sell puppies.  Most often they are paying someone to title them so that they can sell the puppies because it is expected and propagated that only titled dogs should be bred.  Why not a title for a certified family companion?  My most favorite trait of the GSD is the look, then a close second trait is the trait that a GSD possesses of not straying, wanting to be close to its master at all times.  Few large breeds have that trait, and it is highly desirable in my book.  The other trait is that confidence.  Standing its ground when a stranger approaches.  Not going up with tail wagging to just anyone, like a lab or poodle is prone to do, but also not slinking away in fear or timidness.

I am not suggesting that people should breed any two nice GSD's nilly willy, nor am I suggesting that GSD's without any nerve be bred.  What I am suggesting is that a concerted effort could and should be undertaken to breed and produce those dogs that have proven themselves to be great family companions and protectors of their families and property with a natural instinct such as those exhibited by wild dogs when protecting their litters and dens.  It is already there, if given the chance to flourish.  Just like breeding dogs that bite better, will produce dogs that bite better, over time. Breeding dogs that are great family companions will produce dogs that are even better family companions, over time.

I guarantee you this.  Over time, the GSD that you cherish and relish, will fade from existence, for so many reasons.  If the GSD does not adjust to society, it will become like the Pit Bull and the Rottweiller, shunned by most, feared by most, and forbidden by most.  Many say that in order to get rid of false fears that the public in general has about schutzhund training, that the SV and clubs should put on public displays, etc.  So why it is rarely, if ever done?  Because it will accomplish the opposite and the SV understands this.  Schutzhund sports in the U.S., is a very small number of people, and is getting smaller.  I have not looked it up, but I bet that there are many entire States that don't have more than one club of six people, or may not even have any club.  When I get the time, I will look into that.  By the way, I joined the SV in 2004.
I, like many people, would and do desire a robot dog that is fierce and will attack upon my command, but it has too many bad side effects that come with it.  Too many public concerns, to allow the breed to flourish, if it continues in the direction of bite training.

I didn't really want to say this aloud, but:  What the heck are people who care about this breed thinking?  By having a sport whereupon we breed for, and teach dogs to attack humans.  For Sport!  Might as well breed and train dogs to attack cats for sport.  Just cover the cats in carpet.  Same as Bullfighting in Spain.  It is barbaric and a doomed endeavor.  But, that's just my opinion.  Others differ and I was there where they are once.  I have converted.

By the by.  A-Dog, you didn't buy that crap about me having a rap CD and I don't buy that crap about rotating dogs every couple of weeks into the house and family.  Sounds nice and peachy, but not really practicle.  Possible yes, not highly suspect.  Like my CD. 

I know that I am not going to change your mind.  You know that you are not going to change my mind.  We are both trying to win a debate and it has been fun debating with you.  I have already received several emails thanking me for saying what others thought about this subject, and maybe you have received emails thanking you for giving that idiot A-Fear, what-for.  But, you really don't think I am one of those pansy, liberal, limp wristed folks you alluded too.  You just used that as a bullet in your fight.  I know that and understand it.  All's fair in love and war.

Like I said.  It's been fun.

Tsk, Tsk DoFear, I never said I wanted that kind of dog and frankly don't recall anyone else having said that. Perhaps because they are what dogs would be like bred for aggression instead of proper nerve and hardness. You do seem to struggle with the concept of hardness. It is not raw aggression.  And I have to say it sounds funny to be speak for every Sch trainer on what he/she would relish. That is one very broad brush to paint with, my friend.

And I appreciate your making my point for me about having not been around stable dogs who can also work.  Certainly glad there are those that can work and not be cocked weapons. See, we can agree on something.

Technically, hardiness is a health issue whereas hardness is a resilience and stablity issue.  Maybe that misunderstanding is why it's so difficult for you to grasp this concept.

I believe show lines are more popular because many people have the same lack of understanding of hard dogs and have limited exposure to stable dogs with hardness. I'm certainly not belittling you for it. I made the same mistake in reasoning when buying my shepherd. Luckily I found a knowledgeable breeder of hard, yet stable dogs. I love my show line. But, I've been exposed to different dogs and am really much more attached to them.

I think there is a title for family companion. The Canine Good Citizen. Heard great things about that program.

Chris Columbus? Well, good luck sailing off to discover this new breed of yours.

You are a silly guy.  Like anyone ever said Mike Tyson was a sweet, funny clown. Pshaw! Such a kidder.