What are the benefits to doing muzzle work? - Page 4

Agar at the age of 4 yrs he should be trained with more control especially if you are his handler.  Like I put in the email start to control him by having him sit next too you.  Do not let him go to the end of the leash anymore.  How many bad guys do you see that jump up and down taunt you with a stick and let you send the dog.  Start by having him sit next to you and he only gets a bite when you give him the command to waatch him and the puckn or whatever command you chose.  Agar is old enough for this no more wild and crazy bitework..........

Agar,
I just pulled this thread up and was suprised at how much feedback there was for you.  I have not read most of it, just scanned, so may repeat someone.
I just wanted to point out a few Principles that to me are foundational to all training. First though I wanted to say I am impressed with your humility and willingness to learn. This is the key to getting good with dogs. Always remain humble ( teachable)
The foundational principles to me are staying away from systems, formulas, and unflexable methods. Spend lots and lots of time with your dog in all enviorments. Learn to read him like the back of your hand. Learn from him. Learn to read his eyes, they will speak volumes to you. They will convey uncertainty, confidence, happyness, depression, boldness, fear, submission, confusion, dominence, agitation, anger, and everything that he is experiencing at any given moment. Learn when and how he bluffs, ( this one is often miss read ) Learn what triggers these responses. If you do not learn to thoroughly read him, all the methods in the world will be useless. His body language also needs to be understood but I believe it is more simple to read his body. When I say stay away from formulas please use some comon sense with that. Obviously there are proven formulas that work in most situations, but I am referring to more of what you are talking about and problem solving or doing anything beyond routine training. Each dog must be evaluated for what motivates him and his abilities, not dogs in general. JMO

When working with your dog, only look at the recomendations of a trainer or a book as just that, a recomendation. Each dog needs to be worked with his temperment, strong points and weak points etc. in mind. IMO it all gets down to Feel. Read him and learn to Feel what needs to happen next. When you learn to read him you will instinctively know or at least figure out what needs to happen next.
It is a huge pet peeve of mine when a topic comes up that a dog is having a problem with and 20 people will respond with a formula. I have been guilty of this, but I try not to fall into that. There is little that you cannot accomplish with your dog ( up to his genetic make up) if you learn to read him, know him, and reason things out with his best interest at heart. Once you learn these BASIC principles the sky is the limit. I do not believe we truley know the full potential of our dogs as we limit them because of our own limits in understanding them.  Good luck. P.S. I said ( up to his genetic make up) Throw that one out too. Do not consider what his genetic makeup will allow, this will only limit you by YOUR own understanding or misunderstanding of his abilities.  
GARD and Gustov, good to see you post. I would love to hear more on the social dominance in regards to muzzling. That topic wets my appetite.

I have posted this before. This is the perfect example of training social dominance using the muzzle. Everyone has seen where people put a muzzle on a dog, send the dog on a decoy who is on the ground, then it is Yea Haw; ride em cowboy. There is some uselfullness in this by teaching the dog to use their body.

This video is more than just that. This is real training. I have only seen this done twice in real life. It is a lost art that very few know how to do and/or utilize. I love this shit.

http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/training.shtml

Look at the "ground muzzle" video. What do you think?

Olskool I would love it if you would kind of explain what is being done here. Go over the body language of the dog and the actions of the decoy. I think you are the best man for the job as this is more reflective of the "olskool" :) training you are familiar with.

GARD,
Though I appreciate your vote of confidence in me I am sure there are many who have a better working knowledge then me in this regard.
IMO good video, though it confused me at first as to the lack of comunication between handler and dog and the lack of activity of the agitator until it becomes apparent that this slowed down process is just that, the agitator is just encouraging the dog to be be dominant in a passive manner.  It appeared at one point that the agitator may have lightly flanked the dog ( couldn't see his hand) as the dog did return to him. He appeared to be losing interrest and was losing focus just prior to light flanking if that is what it was. ( wish I could watch the video while writing).
I loved the part where the agitator began to dominate in a non threatening manner, yet still dominating, winning the dogs confidence in him. ( which is something that needs to be broken ) The dog was content to have the man on top, setting  up to flank him good enough to bring out an aggresive response.  The dog learned a valuable leason here IMO. It taught him that he, not the man needed to stay dominant, that he not the man was in charge, that he not the man would win  ( even while his only percieved weapon was taken from him ) any altercation. It appeares to me that the dogs sharpness is increased , his mistrust is increased and the handler now enters the picture to praise him for taking his role back.
The agitator holding the lead I assume increases the dogs realization that no one outside of the handler is to be trusted. It is critical that  the agitator knows how hard to flank each dog to arouse aggression only.
This is the first I have seen of this type of muzzle work, but for PP and L.E. it looks great. I would guess that more work in very similar scenerios would be used in which the dog was not flanked every time so it would not be a knee jerk reaction for him to bite. I want to hear your evaluation, Gustovs or others with experience. Great subject

Agar, thanks for asking the question. 

Olskool, GARD, Gustav, and Xeus thanks for all the interesting information.  GARD, great videos, interesting watching them and may start another topic.

olskool- Thank you for the compliments;I try to stay humble and open my ears to those that are much wiser and have become more successful.  Guess it is the reason I have been successful in my business as it is not much different than dealing with dog folks; MUST have extra thick skin (male dominated industry) :- and I learned early on that it's ok to not have all the answers or experience- it's NOT ok however to not take the initiative to learn how to get all the right answers. lol  I always chose the most successful intelligent people in my industry to make my good friends.  I built myself on their knowledge and success with much respect and admiration with the road they too once traveled when they themselves did not know so much. lol  Never was envious or jelous; just became more driven to get to where they were in life but faster. I ask a lot of questions and quite frankly don't care if others think they are stupid, pointless, or I want to know too much...because I am that driven as an individual to gain knowledge with the things that spark me.  I want to know how things get put together, why things work the way they do and what methods can gain the same results but in an easier fashion such as the tip that Xeus gave me to help me handle Agar easier.  My trainer says it can be frustrating at times training because he loves my dog and knows he's ready to advance and do bigger and better things but that we are not at that level yet. lol  The part that keeps him focussed on being patient is my determination to keep trying regardless of how long it takes.  He kicks my ass a lot sometimes...lol  so I feel like I get it from all ends- husband, trainer and even the damn dog BUT they can't break me down. lol  I keep coming back for more.  I must love the abuse or something. lol  If I start to complain about it being "chilly", or that I forgot my gloves...he tells me stop whinning like a girl! lol  Then I have to remind him I AM a GIRL! lol  But getting back to the thread...I'd like it very much too if you could explain what was happening in the video GARD posted as I have watched it on Nates site before and have much respect for their training practices but never had anyone explain to me what was being shown with the dogs body language and the decoys actions.  And Gard is right; not many folks know how to train that way as I have never seen it done until I saw it one Nate's site.

GARD,
Why was the dog not brought into the excersize a tad hotter? I realize that it was more about social dominance initially but the agitator was using his hands to encourage the dog to understand that he ( the agitator ) was intimidated by him ,however the dog did not respond to these efforts. It would have been interresting to have been there and talk to the trainers and hear what they had to say.

Agar,

The thing people have too learn and of course this is only my opinion.  In PPD or police work you dont want to always jaz the dog up for everything.  You want the dog to figure some things out with as little help as possible.  The video looks like they were trying to teach the dog how to be dominant with his body, not just his mouth.  when the agitator started to show his dominance by going on top of the dog and the dog allowed it the helper flanked him to piss the dog off and to let him know what to do.  The difference between a PPD, Patrol dog from sport dog is the dog must be able to work when their is no prey drive or a lot of stimulation.  I have seen plenty of suspects stand their and talk too you nice and out of know where the attack you. 

Xeus-  yes I agree.  In fact it appears you have the same thoughts on this subject as my trainer does.  I'd imagine in comes from being in law enforcement.  It's gotten to the point now with Agar that we don't need to jaz em up at all...the minute he sees the decoy even if he's just standing around talking to someone without any equipment visible to the dog Agar is TOTALLY fixated on his every move.  He has never been a very vocal dog unless the threat is clearly right there and approaching in a suspicious nature but his eyes are always on the decoy. So in hearing you describe the difference in working a PPD or police dog from a sport dog it appears that the guy I train with incorporates more techniques that he trained his patrol dogs with. 

Olskool

Call Mike Diehl up and ask him.  That is who did the agitation.  Mike is a good, oldschool trainer that loves to talk shop.