Qustions about culling? - Page 4

Blitzen,

the SV rules that you cited are correct, but the 6 month rule counts only if the mother raises more than 8, if she nurses them.  If you have a foster mother for the pups then it doesn't count and you can breed the bitch in her next heat.

Trixi

Thanks, Trixi, but I'm still not clear why their rules state - a bitch may not rear more than 8 puppies from her own litter. What does that mean?

Blitzen,

I believe the historical basis for this rule relates back to the food shortages of WW I and II , the time in between the wars and the time right after WW II when food shortages persisted.  I believe the thinking was more than 8 would deplete the dam and give all a less chance to survive and after all the breakfast bar was designed to accomodate 8.

4pk you stated " Of course they aren't going to say litter of 12 healthy pups and we culled 4 so now it's 8 healthy pups. We just don't hear about the other 4, they get swept under the carpet so to speak. "    Actually that is incorrect. Once again if I remember correctly it was shown right on the pedigree the number and sex of pups culled as I believe it still shows if a foster mother was used and still shows the number of pups born dead. Gotta give them this - they're great record keepers.

Now I'm more than willing to stand corrected so would like to hear from some of our German friends or breed historians.

Don, I loved your post and wholeheartedly agree that's probably what the breed needs the most.

Beth

Beth, that makes good sense to me. Thanks for the insight.

Well, well, well, this is most informative! Now I know why serious breeders would not respond to my P. E. T. G. S. D. post. All that undefined culling as killing going on to spare the world the "less than desirable", as 4 pack aptly put it.

So which is it, really, are the big-time breeders using culling to sell as pets, or killing to refine the breed? And making/saving $ all the while?

I also strongly disagree with Two Moons who blames overflowing shelters solely on irresponsible pet owners. Certainly they are to blame in many cases, but irresponsible breeders most likely are the source for the irresponsible pet owner.

~Deb

Howdy,

here is the scenario how it is done by the SV in Germany :

1. If the bitch whelps more than 8 pups, the breeder & the breedwarden should pick the strongest pups over the amount of 8 and place them with a foster mom. This should be done in the first 10 days of live of the pups.

2. Every "Landesgruppe" (crude translation : stategroup) has a contact phone # , where breeder can list their litters, if they would be willing to take foster pups.

3. The mating of a female just for the reason to provide the bitch as a foster mum to others is prohibited, also the usage of a bitch that has a faked (false) pregnancy.

4. If the breeder, that has a litter over 8 pups, decides to leave all pups with the mother, because she is producing enough milk, the bitch can not be rebred for 6 month after the whelping date of the "oversize" litter.

5. Any pups that show, and this counts for all litters, any deformaties,abnormalies, that clearly show that the pup is not to live for an extendet time, is to be presented to a Vet, not later than 11 days after whelping. The Vet has the ultimative decision whether to pts or not. If the Vet decides to pts, it has to be done pain free. For any other exaptions of these rules the SV has to be contacted.

6.Any other form,than the natural upbringing of the pups is prohibited.

7. The local breedwarden has to control the foster upbringing. The pups can be brought to the foster mum also later the first 10 days of their life, for instance if the female dies later. This has to be done with the "state breedwardens" aproval.

8. When the time comes to tatoo the pups, the pups are to be brought back to the breeder. This can be done not earlier than the age of 7 weeks. (they have to be at least 49 days old). The pups that come back have to be clearly marked, as this info will go into the database of the SV.

There are severel other scenarios, if the foster mum is from out of state etc, but that would be a little to much for now.

So actually, if done correctly, a pup that comes from a foster mum, is just as good as any other, because it should have been the strongest one selected out of that litter.

Now what is done behind closed doors we will never know, anyone doing it any different, i would guess, would not make it puplic to beginn with. But this is speculation, something I do not wish to get involved with.

Hopefully I was able to shed some light on the procedure.

Regards Ulli

Thanks much Ulli.  Would be interesting to know how they "mark" fostered pups, and how secure the marking is?

Hi Ulli, it seems clear to me that the SV does not condone or approve of breeders killing their own puppies.  I don't know if the AKC has taken a stand on that subject or not. Thanks for the information.

Howdy Do right & Blitzen,

The marking of the foster pups is quite easy - put some nail colour on their toes or mark the tip of their tail - basicly whatever you can think off - just dont cut off their tail or ear !!

No, the SV clearly states that, if a pup has to be pts, it has to be out of a medical reason and NOT because it is out of an oversized litter ! This would be against the law, and clearly nothing the SV would like to be affiliated with. Anything else, and this is my opinion too, would be cruel & out of porportion. I believe the reason for these regulations to be the aim for the well beeing of the animals.

Neverless, there were other times way back when ...... I do recall, that out of ltters my grandfather bred, all of a sudden pups were missing. But again, this is over 35 + years ago & the times and the affection to "pets " have chanced a lot.

Regards Ulli

Breeding for "pet" puppies or selling pet puppies is about money and feeling good about yourself. It has nothing to do with "improving the breed." It definatley contributes to the over pet population. I have always found that term interesting. Over-pet. That means there are too many pets. Where do the pets come from?

Mothers cull their sick puppies, in nature only the strong survive. The only way to make sure only the best dogs reproduce, is by eliminating the weak ( I mean not strong enough for the work) or sick dogs. The only other way to prevent the breeding of sub-par dogs is to alter the puppy before it goes to it's new owner. How many people do that? Very, very few. Why? Money.

Now for me personally, this is from a working standpoint and viewpoint. To cull a puppy  that was bred for show because it has white toenails in stupid. If people want to have pets, the showline washouts should be pets, agility, or herding dogs.  The working line dogs should be the hard ass, sharp, or aggressive dogs they should be, not for anything other than doing the bitework.

They are basically two different breeds now anyway.