Qustions about culling? - Page 6

Thank you Ulli !!  I am hoping all is well with your family.

Hi Ulli,

No worries. If everyone agreed on everything, what a boring world we would live in. I understand with you, and other hard core GSD people have an ideal or dream of the perfect all around dog. I hear the term "golden middle" come up often. I don't think a "golden middle" is something people should strive for. I think a "golden middle" equals mediocre. There is also the saying "GSD's are not the best at anything but 2nd best at everything." I think that saying is pretty good.  

Couple of things. As for the GSD originally being a herding dog. That is true. Show was the malinios. My question is how many GSD's are out doing herding everyday on real ranches? Very, very few. The world constantly evolves. We are no longer an agricultural enviorment. Dogs have evolved. Dogs like the Border collie and other breeds are far superior in herding now and are the breeds of choice for "real" herding dogs. The GSD and Malinios have evolved from herding dogs to the best dogs for police service or dog bite sports.

Show and working will always be seperate. In every breed and every dicipline. I think dogs should do what they were ment to do or how the world has evolved with the individual breed. Not for what someone thinks is visually appealing. I'll bet there are very few dogs that compete in the Westminster dog show that go out and actually hunt for a whole season, compete at the highest sport trails, or work the mean streets everyday. Show ruins working in every breed. That is the nature of the beast, I guess.

As for the money aspect, I guess I should be more clear. I guess it depends on the individual breeder.  If someone is a dog breeder, and that is what they do for a living, it a different story. But the integrity of that breeder is most important. Does the breeder breed for specific venues such as police work or bite work sport? This type of breeder probably (should) not be letting their dogs out in the general public and should cull those dogs that do not make it. Then you have the "hobbiest" those that breed 2-4 littlers a year. I think these can be the best or potentially the worst breeders. 

I have been fortunate enough to have dealt with two good GSD breeders. One a large scale, the other the "hobbiest" both are producing top quality dogs and are ethical with their dogs and owners.  

As for culling pups at 8 weeks. I do believe in some cases you can tell pretty much off the bat the dog isn't going to cut it. I l know a breeder who don't sell or cull pups till they are 4 months old. I know a breeder who waits until they are a year old. I know a breeder who never sold a pup to anyone for years until his breeding standard and goals were accomplished. These types of breeders are the best in my opinion. These types of breeders are definatly not doing it for the money. They however, are few and far between.

I enjoy reading your posts. You are one of the ones I look for to learn something and respect your knowlege and opinions. I think we have similar mindsets in some areas and quite seperate on others. Like I said, If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a very boreing place.

GARD no arguement from me that few GSD's are used as tending dogs today and I think that's a real pity since that was their intended use from day one. However, from a practical sense it's a lot easier to find a Schutzhund club to train with than it is to find a flock of sheep. Thus far fewer GSD's are exposed to sheep and not many get the chance to participate in an HGH trial. As I understand it, the sport of Schutzhund was created as a performance/evaluation/breed worthiness test to replace herding/tending.  I don't think that herding should ever be held to a lesser degree that Schutzhund and herding dogs should never be considered "showline washouts".

Are there any working dogs lines that can tend? Any with HGH's? Any dual titled?

I'm sure that working dogs could tend (except the one that wanted to kill the sheep) As far as how many and who I couldn't tell you. I imagine most of the people who are working these dogs are doing some sort of bite work sport.

And just for the record so people don't think I am a puppy killer......

I am not a breeder. In my whole life I have culled 2 pups, put one adult down for temperment issues. None of which were enjoyable situations. I had to be done and the other two where in my opinion the right thing to do. Not enjoyable by any means. I also was going to put a young dog down and at the lst minute let her go to a pet home. I was torn with that decision. I never heard from the girl who took her again. I hope it worked out.

Yes , there are gsd's titled HGH today. 

Do right,  two moons and others.
Because this thread has gone on so long and so many turns  I may start a new thread as IMO this is an important issue.
Do right, to start with I am in disagreement with Blitzen. Though I respect her knowledge I think some of this info needs to be re- examined.

To start with Webster's defines cull: "to pick out ; select and gather 2. to pick over, something picked out ;  esp. something rejected that is not up to standard.  It is this last definition that pertains more to culling of puppies IMO.

Culling has been a practice since breeding started. Culling does infact refer to killing pups. Ask most any farmer what culling means. It is common practice on farms to cull litters of unwanted pups.

I want to offer a quote from Winifred Strickland, I and many consider the the most knowledgable breeder, trainer, handler, and importer of solid gsds. Her credentials speak for themselves, as her integrity as a breeder, and countless titles both in show and work went on for many years. 

She writes,  "  Culing a litter is an upleasant but necessary duty at times. The  most humane and painless way to put the unwanted puppies to sleep is to drown them in a bucket of water.  It is no problem culling a litter when it is not uniform in quality, but this is not the case when all the puppies are uniform in size, quality, and appearance. In this case you would be hard pressed to know which puppies to destroy. If a foster mother is available ..................................................."

Max v Stephanitz in regards to breeding wrote,  " Exact knowledge, careful selection and suitabable keeping of the breeding couple, an acute obvsevation, and , if necessary, extermination of the results of such a breeding are the sine qua non for successful inbreeding ".

Max, refers to himself as a dog lover, a lover of his beloved Shepherd dogs, culled !

I am going to resume this post so I don't  run out of time.

I dont want to participate further, I kind of had a bad experience with this forum and will try to void further pain.

But I cannot allow the practice of drowning to be considered humane.   I'm sorry but its not!

I would ask that no one use such a cruel method..   Put yourself in the animals place and ask yourself how you would choose to go.  Please be kind to yourselves and your animals.

Part two,
There are different opinions on culling, ( seperating from the dam and putting down )  pups.  We have ( A )  to  (Z ) in opinions.  Those on the (A) side reason with emotions. Those on the (Z) side reason with mathmatics/ logic. Most of us are inbetween or vasilate to one side or the other at different times.  My problem starts when those that are on the far (A) side tell me and the world that those on the (Z) side are cruel, mean, killers of puppies.

Though I personally may lean towards the (A) side on subjects such as cute little puppies, I do believe and support those that are on the (Z) side.  A farmer has the right to cull an unwanted litter of pups. This has gone on since the beginning of dogs relationship with man. You take them and put them in a burlap sack and drown them in a water tank. It is that simple. It is the way it is. 

IMO we have moved so far to the (A ) side that we simply cannot use any other type of reasoning. This is sad to me. This defies logic and sound reasoning.  I am not talking about those that refuse to except the (Z) people. These are the animal activists, Peta, etc. The  Dogs are people folks.

30 years ago this would not even be a topic. It was understood that the owner of the animal or the breeder had the right to eliminate those that were not wanted, unfit or did not reach the standard. 

As far as the S.V. goes this is a quote, "  Puppies with deformities asd such that thave not appeared on further vieww to be vaible or keep up with litter mates are to be killed at the latest on the 11th day , painlessly etc........................"  The S.V. also states that pups are to be put to sleep by a vet or other knowledgable person,, and I don't see where this cannot be done by the breeder, though it may address this at another place.

Today I talked with an old friend who was importing dogs when many of us were not yet born. She is from Germany and is definatly old schoo.  I asked her why we don't cull any more and she stated, " I do. When a puppie is not healthy or it is plain to see he is not keeping up with the others, can' t find the mothers teet etc. then I cull him at about 2 weeks. She does this her self, as it has been done for many many years.

IMO, we have swung so far to the (A) side, emotional reasoning only, that we are not seeing the big picture and what is good for the breed. We are in love with our selves and our FEELINGS and cannot make good sound decisions base on fact, logic and it is costing us our breed.      P.S.   This was not meant to slam any one or to slam those on the (A) team, but just a perspective that I hope brings a little balance to the subject.  Thanks

Two Moons,
I am sorry for your grief.  My references to farmers and breeders that culled in the manner of drowning was to illistrate a point.
I do not advicate this but I also do not condemn a farmer that uses such a method. 

I do know that culling by drowning is common, with kittens and puppies, by rural peoples, who do not get their barn cats "fixed" nor their dogs "fixed" but do not want or need more cats or dogs.  You are correct.  It is done often, especially in years gone by, but is still common today.  City folks "cull" by dumping their unwanted puppies and kittens in a bag thrown off a bridge, or actually dropped from a moving vehicle.  During my career as a cop, I knew of such things happening fairly often.  Or, the city folks will take there slightly older dogs and cats and "dump" them near a farm or just out in the woods of a park or rural area, somehow justifying in their own minds that it will not be them killing the animal but nature, if it does not survive.  That they are giving it a chance to survive (yea, slim and none usually)  I have had several cats dumped on my property and it is about the worst place in the area to do so because of all of my dogs, but they see some farm animals or hear that I am an animal lover, and discard their unwanted on my property.  This is also a form of culling, but doesn't take the hutzpa to do the killing with their own hands (even though they actually are).

Yes, culling was done by Stephanitz and it wasn't with a "pet only contract, please do not breed".  It and they were killed, usually by drowning.  I would assume, sometimes for just being the wrong color, or too many pups (cull the weaker looking ones), or perhaps even sometimes because or "oops" litters.

Funny thing is, I can not even kill a spider that my wife finds (and runs from) in the house.  I could, but I choose to pick it up somehow and take a short walk to the woods and let it go.  She thinks I am crazy for doing that.  It is also funny that I have killed or tried to kill humans, that gave me less pause than some dogs I have had put down by a vet, for certain reasons.  Of course, the dogs were not trying to kill me and the humans were, so maybe that is the difference.

Culling, when I raised and raced homing pigeons, was an absolute necessity, if I wanted to participate in that sport.  The only way out ot it would have been to not participate, and then I would have had to "dump" the birds I had, by locking their coop and refusing to feed them.  Most would have died then also.  When I did stop, I found homes for the exceptional birds but the less than exceptional were locked out and not fed, and I knew that most lived short lives afterwards.  Bothered me then and still does, but we do what we do and live with regret many times in life.