Out-crossing GSD with other breeds - Page 4

I would also like to respectfully disagree w/ Do Right about the following statement - "Capt. Stephanitz dedicated his personal life to his endeavor of creating the dog of his vision.  One could argue that he did not quit get what he was looking for, but had to settle with something that was "good enough".  It has been said that "the GSD is good at everything but not best at anything."  I would argue that Stephanitz really wanted a dog that was the best at what he was searching for.  A herding dog with owner loyalty extreme, healthy and capable.  Since he (we) actually ended up with a dog that is full of health concerns and is not near the best at herding, he had to have been slightly dissapointed with the outcome"

DoR have you ever done any herding? I have and let me tell you we have very very strong herding capabilites in our breed - Capt Max did get it right. And that genetic gift has persisted even in American lines that did not pay any attention to working traits for generations. When you say not near the best at herding what is that based on?  Herding dogs are like all working dogs - you have your trial dogs and your ranch dogs(the ones that do the actual work). I can not tell you the number of times I have sat next to a grizzled old rancher at a county fair or a stockdog trial and we get talking dogs and when it came up that I have GSDs and herd with them they would say - "You know the best all around ranch dog I every had was a Shepherd" And re the healthy with extreme loyalty - its all in the selection. My last herding GSD lived to 14 working well into his 12th year. I put a basic herding title on his mom at age 12 and a half who lived to almost 14. When I bought her mom in the 70s I already saw that longevity and health were beginning to be problems so I deliberately chose for longevity.  Did the same when I bred her ( bred to an 11 year old dog who had never been bred before but had the combination of beauty and brains that I was looking for AND complemented what my bitch needed). Most of those pups lived healthy lives to 13 or 14. Longevity like is actually a very easy strong trait that can be selected for BUT you have to select for it. I think Capt Max would be very proud of many many of his dogs today who are actively serving their families or their town or their nation.

The other thing that the Capt did wh/ many people do not realize is he kept an open stud book. Any active working herding dog was allowed into the gene pool. I'm pretty sure this was true up to at least 1938 and possibly to the mid 50s. I suspect this is the origin of the "white" papers or performance pedigree. I would love for some of our German friends to find out the true history of this and how long it really was allowed. Read his yearly reports and you will find reference to this.

Finally a response to DoR's question " What would you breed to what, to get the correct GSD for the future?  Would your answer basically prohitbit all but a few from being able to breed GSD's?"

1. Strictly enforce height limits and   2. Bring back the weight limts. Prior to 1968 the standard contained weight limits as well as height. Bitches were 45- 65 pounds and Males 65 to 85 if I remember correctly. Even if we originally slightly broadened the range with the intent of moving back slowing ( ex 45-75 bitches and 65-90 males) it would be a great improvement and surprise some of them might start to look like and have the agility of a Mal.  I had a 22 inch 60 pound bitch ( solid muscle) and I can not tell you the number of times I was asked where I got the midget shepherd. People especially in the good old USA where we seem to thinkg anything that is bigger is better have absolutely no idea what the correct size for a GSD is. And just maybe returning the breed to its origins as a medium size dog would help accerbate some of the orthopedic problems.

3. Open the stud book judiciously. Start with the alte deutchsce schaferhund ( old german shepherd) which still works as a herding dog in Germany today ( but omg we might have to allow coats again- and yes I would do that. A perfectly healthy coat with an undercoat was always accepted until quite recently and it was an economic decision nothing more on the SVs part to DQ them). Find ways to incorporate active working herding, police, bomb detection etc dogs who bear a determinable resemblance to the breed standard ( perhaps along the lines of the AKC ilp program or the horse registries grade programs). Problem is most police k9s in this country are sold by brokers who do NOT give the papers to the departments and even if they do then there are all these jursdictional issues about who owns the dog - the town or the handler)

4. Encourage (and in Germany the SV could mandate) adherence to Max's view that no one should own more than 6 GSds because you can not adequately meet their needs in terms of training and interaction if you do. This would start to get rid of the volume breeders which are a major part of our problems we have today.

5. Encourage wilingness to look at a dog's capabilities and consider  cross breeding within the different "styles" of GSD we have today ( show/working  WGer/DDr/Cz  black/white/ American). But of course this would all require people to plan and to select. To select for real health and functionability not just test results and for breeding vigor and longevity.

Quote: I agree in a sense. I do see Mali people getting wood over turcudos and other notable Mals. Former GSD people no doubt. : )

Quote: If used constatnly then you will end up with a nerve bag Mali. Uhhhhhhh, only if you are starting with shit. Do you have a breeding program currently???

Quote: And I'm sorry an animal can produce better than themselves Sure, if you are starting with less, you can improve, but why?? I am not old, but the entire world can kiss my ass if they think that the dogs of today are better than the dogs of yesteryear. I remember dogs biting much harder back then. Dogs of today are getting narrowed down into sport, (sch) and quite frankly are shit because of that. The sport is watered down and the dogs are as well. I hate this board as when I reply, I cannot go back to the post and have to go back and forth if there is more than one thing to discuss. : )

OK. The police dept thing doesn't hold water with the Mals thing just as a side note, becasue seriously, they can't train for shit. Sorry, I have seen people kiss their ass, and say what great trainers they are, but you rarely see anyone worth a shit come from a PD. So the GSD IS the better dog for them, as they are stupid. What you described is exactly a Mal that has been trained poorly, and as if he was a GSD. If there are cops here that are offended, kiss my ass you KNOW you cannot train for shit, and have so many restrictions to your work, I wonder why you would bother with it : P

VKFGSD:  You obviously are knowlegeable about the breed.  My statement you quoted above is in reference to what is generally considered common knowledge.  That the GSD is not the best at herding.  There is at least one and maybe two breeds that are generally better at it.  So, if Stephanitz was shooting for the best dog for that job, he was beaten by someone else.  But, to be fair to him, he sort of gave up on the goal and switched gears halfway through his endeavor.  Who knows how good they would be if he had not switched gears/goals.  I am sure that there a GSD's in certain areas that are excellent and can hold there own in herding.  However, from the reading about herding trials and competitions, I have never seen a GSD win one of those events.  You are right though, that I have no experience with herding, except for a very limited and unseccessful attempt at it with my GSD's and three goats I have.  I gave up quickly and have no desire to pursue it.  Just to busy with other things.

Of course there are anecdotal stories and individual dogs that some will state were the best ever, but really no one disputes that the GSD is not the best herding dog.  Even amoungst us GSD enthusiasts.

I will be amazed if no one comes on here and says you are a dummy for even suggesting crossing the so-called American Shepherds, and/or white Shepherds, with the "normal" GSD.

I for one, would be against the whites for sure.  Blacks, maybe.  Americans, maybe (it would have to be the extra exceptional ones),  working (DDR/Czech, etc) for sure.

Not trying to start a fight here....but why not the whites they have in Europe just out of mild curiosity?  They've seperated the breed...but in general their health concerns have been pretty minimal especially in Switzerland because they are working very hard at that...and there are even several working dogs over there.  And whats more - why not the blacks?  They are a member of the GSD breed and even an accepted color...just because it is not prefered in the show ring?

VFKGSD - I thought your posts were outstanding.  Having an attached Stock book to the stud book might work - having a Stock Dog Registry for those dogs that are approved for breeding within the German Shepherd Breed.

~Cate

No need to outcross with other breeds.

If breeders stoped trying to get that highest ranked dog in their puppies pedigrees and seriuosly looked at the standard in all regards. Structure, drive, temprement inteligence and health then the breed will improve. If dog A meets the standard in all aspects then breed with another to strengthen the standard NOT what looks good on paper. If your bitch has flaws that weaken the standard then find a stud that excells in those areas she is weak.

I know thats simplistic but really many breeders are in it for the money,  not all. AS a community we need to support those breeders that breed responsibly and not to the highest ranked pair they can find. What if a mating has 2 dogs that are weak in a certain area but look great on paper. Bad pairing.

I would like to see the GSD ranked in all areas. Structure, inteligence, hips, temprement, drive and health and what areas of work they are best suited or have excelled at. This would enclude real working dogs that don't have titles. A real working dog such as SAR, drug or explosives, arson detection, herding or guide or assistance dogs and of course protection work. These dogs need to be as highly regarded in a breeding program as a VA or a titled working dog that does no real work.

Some pairings will produce dogs that excell in certain areas of work. Let that be known. Don't ever breed just because they look good. Breed for the standard, health and some working ability and the breed will improve. Use the whole gene pool not a select few.

All in all though, I agree with most of what you have said. I appreciate the fact that you spent the time to post more than just one or two lines like I see too much of, including myself. : )