Out-crossing GSD with other breeds - Page 5

I'm sure many will think I'm a dummy and some have told me that to my face because I have discussed at great length the genetic hole we are breeding ourselves into by each going in our own separate direction. To each their own.

I would like to suggest re the herding you would be better speaking about what you know.  "reference to what is generally considered common knowledge.  That the GSD is not the best at herding.  There is at least one and maybe two breeds that are generally better at it.  So, if Stephanitz was shooting for the best dog for that job, he was beaten by someone else.  " First understand  there a dozens of herding breeds. Why? they were developed for specific applications. How a collie works is different from a border collie is different from a cattle dog etc. All herding dogs need the same skills - pick up and move stock, pen them and hold them in an open space.  The "style" with which they do the work depends on the environment that they came out of. A BC might be the best with 3 flighty sheep in a very stylized trial but try working them on 300 or 3000 heavy stubborn ewes that will happilty ram them. Most BC will do one of two things in this situation - they will "clap" meaning they hit the ground and don't move tho this behavior is more often seen and related to other things in herding or two they literally do not engage meaning the stock doesn't get moved. They often also refuse to work in tight close space which is why kelpies were bred.  Guess what  GSD will do- hint it's not either of the above. I'm sure you are referring to BC trials w/ your reference to common knowledge and the best at herding. A. The breed is good at promoting their tstyle of rials and B. Like I said there is a difference between trial dogs and ranch dogs AND Max was creating ranch dogs that would herd AND be a protecor of the stock and the shepherd. In this he succeeded. Early on in the remergence of herding in GSD in this country I was at a seminar where the speaker basically said well if you want a real herding dog get a BC. I thought about that and this is my perception. ( and by the way I grew up with a BC and also with what we called an old farm collie which is pretty much what the alter deutche schaferhund is - very different animals in temperment and character and capabilities). I want  a GSD as a herding dog not only because I love and enjoy the breed but I want a dog that will look up from the stock and see that there is an intruder - human/dog/coyote and be able and willing to do something about that as well as herd stock. I believe this was Max's vision and aim and he did succeed at it admirable better than any of the other herding breeds. So like anything it's all in how you define what you are looking at. By the way not only will the vast majority of BC not be able to handle the above situation most of them would be so fixed on the stock ( or a neaby haystack that they think is stock) that they would never percieve the threat.

" But, to be fair to him, he sort of gave up on the goal and switched gears halfway through his endeavor.  "

No wrong once again DoR. You really do need to study the breed history. The Capt did not leave herding the sheep industry left Germany after WW1. Since he wanted his beloved breed to survive yes he was a good marketeer and he found them other uses and jobs but he always saw the active herding dogs as the wellspring of the breed. Again read his yearly reports - many of them are translated- he clears states that. Under his tutelage and later SV authorities until at least the 50's attention was paid to keeping active herding lines so they could be accessed for breed improvement. That is why we have always had separate regulations about the suitabilty of herding dogs as breeding stock - it is not an accident.

Jeff won't disagree with your assesment of the vast majorityof K9 handlers - they are neither dog people nor trainers. However the behavior I describe I have seen in very highly well trained Mals who compete in Sch and Ring at national levels. It ain't a training issue. It is a nerve/brain issue. So I respectfully disagree.

I also repectfully continue to disagree with your comments about "improving" on the partners selected. Note never said there weren't better dogs in the "good old times. Some of them were better but a lot were worse. And some of those better ones have their equal today - you just have to look for them. I will not disagree that there is a ton of shit breeding going on. I think we can both agree on that.

Re breeding philosophies I have said I believe in compensatory breeding- meaning you look for the areas you would like to change/improve and find a partner which can hopefull do that while retain the good you have. I also believe in paying attention and trying to have some idea what you are selecting for and where you are heading.

So far you have said that you believe in breeding extreme to extreme. Tell me what that gets you. I can tell you its unlikely it will breed true. Breeding always is about balancing  many competing priorities and nature is ALWAYS working against you. Nature does not like extremes - it likes the median.  Like I said extreme has its place and use in the gene pool but the GSD has never been an extreme breed. Again go back and read Max he will confirm that. And yes I too have enjoyed your posts and by far agree with the vast majority of what you are saying.

The purpose for breeding is what?????  You talk to ten breeders and you get one general answer, to produce healthy sound dogs to better the breed!!!!  The problem is not in the question  the problem is in the people that you ask.  Breeding dogs is like buying a car, you pick the color, you pick the gears, you pick the looks, you pick the speed and you pick the size you want (SUV, sports car).  As a breeder you need to figure out what kind of GSD you want to produce, high competition, Police, show or even just a couch potato for the average family.  When you figure those issues out you then find dogs with those genetics and traits to breed to.  Hopefully with luck and the stars and the moon aligning up perfectly you achieve your goal.....Can one breeder please all the potential buyers, no.....So is the GSD ruined by having all these different traits, no that is why the GSD is the perfect dog, you can find one that suits your needs.....

I posted this on another  thread,  here  it is again .  

opening the Stud books to other breeds isn't going to do anything but make a mess.  They already tried that years ago crossing in the dutch and belgian sheperds.  It took years on both side to fix all the breeds. 

like mentioned earlier, just cross some of the lines that are so far apart.  Or not so far apart,  after all they are still all

         " GERMAN SHEPHERDS "

Show / east working,  

Show/ west working

Show/ Czech

Show/ Danish

Show/ DDr,  

Czech / German,   

Czech/ DDR,   

You get my Point !    But of Course,    being SELECTIVE  is the Operative word.     I personally bred a Show/ German cross and had fantasic results.  I plan to in the future to breed Czech/ German.   After all a good dog is a good dog no matter what lines it came from.   

Yeah, sure it is nice to breed Great  " PAPERS "   

But it is much Better to breed Great  " DOGS "   

There are plenty of good German shepherds to choose from still,  people just have to see past the fads, and I personally feel that breeding a dog with a back that drops straight to the ground is horrible.   They are cripled.   my 7 year old daughter even said  " poor puppy "  after seeing one of the adds here.     

But I also love the fantastic  Black and red pigment ,   and there are some show dogs I would love to own. 

Ok  I'm not done. 

If people want to cross breed, to improve working ability for Police , Narc, bomb, Sar .    That's fine,  then call it what it is .  

A   " CROSS BREED"  

I have one in my kennel right now ,   a German shepherd/ Malinois .    Fantastic dog! 

But to label him a  level  1 breed stock on his way to producing full blooded German shepherds again is not right. 

He has a purpose and the ability for work,  that does not mean he needs to affect the gene pool any farther than him self.   Or lets say he gets bred to  a German shepherd, or a malinois, or another cross.    Then once again they are all crosses.    That's fine!   Call them what they are.  

We Do not need to Recreate what is already here.    If you want to cross something Cross A German shepherd to a German shepherd with " NO COMMON ANCESTRY FOUND IN THE FIRST 7 GENERATIONS" 

Find Great dogs with Great paper history''s , and cross them

none of what I have said is directed at anyone in particular.  : )

This forum does something to me

just my input     : ) 

Yes, we defnitely need more out-crossing of the GSD. Not with other breeds. But with other GSDs!!!!

Totally agree with the points of Jamille and VKFGSD above. Through historical accidents, conspiracies, or just because LOL...the GSD breed has evolved into different lines. Part of that is basic business sense - Marketing 101 -  market segmentation. That's a big reason why the breed is so popular and numerous and by that one criterion, successful.

Hate to say this again but Stephanitz was a real genius. A failure as a breeder, I believe he had 4 litters and all of them were duds. He was even a failure as a trainer and dog owner, he had to get rid of Horand because Horand and his new stud were fighting. Horand eventually got killed chasing a train (how about that for prey drive LOL) But he was a master organizer, politician and visionary. And like most geniuses in the fields of business and science and technolog, he was able to see beyond the ordinary. He watched the old German herding dogs and he figured out that the same qualities that made them great herding dogs were the same qualities that could make them great police dogs, military dogs and all around working dogs, service and utility dogs.  (one of the biggest uses in World War I  of GSDs was to  find wounded soldiers in the battlefield, as if they were looking for a lost lamb in the fields)

No. 1: trainability. Despite the fact that GSDs have great natural herding instincts, any dog needs a lot of training to become a good herding dog. Trainability is the No. 1 foundation of any working dog breed, by definition, a working dog works with a human handler to do tasks the human could not do as well by himself. A nontrainable dog is useless as a working dog. I think people who are proud of their stubborn, hard head GSD s/d actually be embarrassed.

No. 2: the ability to think and act independently. The kind of herding the Germans did is very different from what you see done in AKC trials in the U.S. There they had a GSD herd 600 huge sheep by acting as a living fence over a wide area and then remaining as a living fence even when these herds traveled over roads several miles. Most of the time they work without handler commands, out of sight of the handler and have to face unpredictable environmental events - thunder, lightning, fast moving vehicles on the road, stray dogs, wolves, strange people - and exercise their own judgement as to the best course of action to take. Hence, the legend of the German shepherd as having "humanlike" intelligence.

No. 3: physical stamina and soundness. As a living fence, herding GSDs have to literally trot several miles a day non-stop. That's the origin of the emphasis on correct structure which of course has been taken to an extreme these days. And they don't just trot, they needed to be able to leap over fences and ditches, accelerate to manuever when sheep bolted - they had to be all-around athletes.

No. 4: non-stop drive. Again as a living fence, correct structure is useless if the dog does not have enough drive to keep going and going, and going...and going LOL.

No. 5: power. This is the part schutzhund people wet dream about and it all comes from herding. The sheep that Germans use are BIG. Adults easily weigh 3X that of an adult male GSD, they're like small cows. A hard headed ram can easily break a human's legs. Now imagine 600 of these monsters that a GSD has to keep in line. If they all ganged up on the GSD at the same time, even a BSP winner will become a weiner. The GSD has to have enough PRESENCE to send the message that - "the first sheep that crosses the line will get beat up so bad, you don't want to be the first." And indeed if any sheep are foolish enough to test the young dog, the young dog has to prove to everybody that he really does own the neighborhood!

No. 6 calm , firm grip.  Again this actually c

No. 6 calm , firm grip.  Again this actually comes from herding. From time to time, sheep will test the dog or are just plain stupid. So the GSD has to actually bite the sheep, not enough to kill it, but just to control it. Even at maximum drive, the GSD has to remain clear headed enough not to butcher the sheep, yet the grip has to be strong enough bec. sheep are not weak animals either. Thus also the need for rock solid, stable nerves.

No. 7 actual tasks like protecting the herd from wolves and human thieves, and using their nose to track down missing sheep were of course easily transferable to other working uses.

Shepherds didn't care about looks, so all the emphasis for looks come from the trophy dog owners. Even back then, some people used dogs as status symbols. Shepherds also didn't care about pedigrees and papers, all they wanted was a dog that could work.

DDRshep... "...he had to get rid of Horand because Horand and his new stud were fighting. Horand eventually got killed chasing a train..."

Can you give us some Web links to these historical side-stories... kindda curious... And yes... We have different types of people owners...  thats why there are different types of GSD...What I know... they also have different people involve in the GSD market... We have the BREEDERS,,, the TRAINERS,,, the MARKETTERS and Show Organizers,,, the SELLERS and BROKERS (S.V. primarily...) and finally the FOREIGN BUYERS...

Say you are a breeder and you can only manage and train 6 GSDs, what do you do...???  I heard this story from MURRENHUTTE siblings "Stucchen.." who migrated away from the GERMANY... I asked  "What happened to your Family dogs... how come you dont have you own GSD...??? "  He replied... most of their dogs where not anymore returned to their family... they went to the Trainers and became foundation dogs and bitches of welknown Zwingers... His father said to him not to anymore breed dogs or else he will go hungry... Now you see him doing extra weekends handling imported dogs since the imported does not understand English nor our county' s language.. like a French MR champ who does not follow AUS or any German command... But he noted... Belgian Mals will definetely ignore you while the GSD will try to think... through your gestures and if the GSD is really intelligent and not just full of drive... You'll get hooked with that dog... He suggest is the INTELLIGENT one... I myself, as a breeder will not strive to just produce only one exceptionally  conformed and well-constructed dog ( I want a whole litter or a least two in alitter that is exceptional...) If can give it away to a good trainer being a co-owner, I will and will not let that dog go to re-sellers or brokers... keep that dog and probably retire him to a well-loving home after all the years of training he'd been...

Great  points  DDRshep !!! 

At least I know I am not alone in my beliefs !  LOL !

DDR Great explanation. Thank you. I've been telling my Sch friends for years that if they truly want to understand obedience in drive and willingness to work WITH the handler they need to try herding. I'm sorry but 25 sheep booking it at 30 mph is a hell of a lot more attractive than a helper standing in the blind.

I was at a BC clinic w/ one of my dogs still young and learning. Of course it being BC people they hold the clinic in a 300 acre open field and simply used a guy w/ 2 backup BC to hold the stock in place for the young dogs to work. Well during my run the guy fell asleep in his hay bale and his dogs figured they could do they same. So when my guy lost his sheep as young dogs will the sheep booked for the one open gate wh/ was about 100 acres away.He pursued. The BC woke up and joined the chased and chaos reigned. As they got near the gate I could see that as hard as he was trying he simply did not have the skills to bring them back and in fact was making it tought for the experienced dogs so I put hands around mouth and hollered one "Mike here". He immediately wheeled and came back to me. A very proud moment let me tell you and he made a very good name for GSDs that day.

What I've always loved about herding is that you can see the wheels working and that brain thinking( w/ a good trainer that is not one who creates robot dogs).  And yes the intelligent disobedience ( or ability to problem solve on their own) which is what made the GSD sutiable for the first guide dog is a distinctive herding trait.

At a trial a number of years ago was a handler w/ I think it was a Bouv. Anyway great dog w/ good herding ability. New, nervous and rotten handler who consistently gave her dog the wrong command. If it was go by she said away. As the run progressed you could see the dog get more and more frustrated.  Finally after one more wrong command he stopped- settled his stock- walked straight back to the handler, looked up and made deliberate eye contact and held it and then proceeded to chew her out verbally - turned around walked back and did the correct move. Today I feel great sympathy for the handler - our dogs do have a way of teaching us true humility- but at the time it was hilarious.

You sound like you too have enjoyed herding because you certainly understand the elements and talents required. Of all the things I've done with my GSDs I love the herding the best even tho I can't really do it anymore but I can watch it all day long and never get bored.

You have the presence and power thing so right. Have to tell one more story.  I share my home with 2 GSDs.  Remy a strong powerful bitch who excells in Schuzthund and Nemo. Don't know how to post a picture but you can see both of them here - http://blog.petpac.net/blog/story/2007/7/21/64146/4861  Remy's the one auditioning for KISS.  Nemo is the pituitary dwarf Shelly R has mentioned before - will have to do an update thread for her.  Nemo is a Lasso son and is a pretty darn special dog. He is very empathic and his primary job is to take care of people but his secret persona that he aspires to is herding dog par excellence.  He is 30 lbs soaking wet and has no problem taking a ram on. Julia and I went to a herding test awhile back just to watch. The Swiss people were putting it on and as you know their dogs are sort of good old boys. Well the sheep easily perceived that and their attitude was yeah right so there's dog in the arena and we should care why?

The club needed one more entry to make a go of it so we stuck Nemo in. By the time Juila and he got to the gate and before he was even off lead the sheep were in the far corner faced outward stamping their feet - they understood the wolf was at the door. He may be small but let me tell you he has power and presence. 

It was actually quite humorous to watch. The tester had gone in w/o a rattle paddle 'cause after all he's just a little dog. As he was doing his warp 9 around the sheep AND being a bit of a prick it dawns on her that it would be useful to have. She gets it but is reluctant to use it thinking she'd discourage his interest. Yeah right -meanwhile Julia's saying whack his ass ( he was not listening well that day) knowing full well such a little thing was not about to deter him. As part of the test you need a call off but by this time he was having way too much fun ( it had been along time since he had gotten to work) and he was basically giving Julia the finger. BUT he was still dragging a 6 foot leash so on the next pass she simply steps on the leash and he hits the end of and does a perfect platz. Meanwhile I'm sitting w/ the Swissie people and all they see is the perfect down and they are absolutely amazed at how well behaves he was. I still laugh every time I see it again in my mind. Thanks for your excellent posts and the wonderful memories it brought.