Out-crossing GSD with other breeds - Page 7

If you watch a team penning event at a rodeo you will see horses that are bred and chosen for their short bursts of speed and acuity for tracking and holding a single calf. Put that same horse on the range for a week and it will be a wreck.  Animals chosen for exhibition sports are not the same as their actual "job" counterparts. An animal, of any breed, doing  well at a trial or rodeo event is not necessarily a representation of the breed's acumen in the actual field of work. It is more the handler's acumen in picking and training an animal for a specific, brief "snapshot" of the larger job.

If you cross a German Shepherd Dog with another breed it is no longer a German Shepherd Dog. It is a mixed breed mutt. Like a PomaPoo or a BullShitz.

DoR - do you have the original Translation on you by any chance and could you give me the page where he says that?  I am still working on reading through the thing, but I do in fact have an original translation and would really love to read that :p

~Thanks

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/73327.html#73369

I agree that tests do not show working ability.  So why all of the emphasis on Schutzhund and other tests?  Shouldn't only dogs that have jobs and do them well, be the only dogs used for breeding?

I have only a minute to type this and will be back tomight or tomorrow to respond further.

It gets better folks.  Stay tuned, as the attack dogs are coming out of the woodwork.  I can sense them just around the corner, waiting to pounce.

Something to ponder.  I am going from memopry here so I hope I relay it correctly.  I can look it up though.

Less than a year ago there was a special on TV about scientists that study DNA and how it can be used to research the history of man.  These scientists came to the conclusion, through DNA studies of humans from all over the globe, that every person in the world is at least a 66th cousin to any other person in the world.  They further concluded that everyone of us could be traced through DNA to one man that lived approximately 66,000 years ago.  They even further concluded that this man was probably from Ethiopia (I hope I got that country correct) because the DNA they found from some inhabitants in a small village there, had the closest DNA code link to the individual they had "settled on" as being everyone's ancestor.

Now, if you know of this, or believe they know what the heck they are talking about, and trust that I more or less have it correct, then think about this.  That study had to deal with billions of humans during that time period and further, and had to deal with the history of at least 66,000 years and longer.

So, relate that to the hundred years or so of the GSD's history and that maybe there are a total of one million GSD's during that time (a very rough guess on my part).  Now, what do you think the relationship of any given two GSD's in existence is?  No matter DDR, show line, Czech or whatever.  3rd cousins?  Fifth cousins?  I gotta go.  Someone else do the math.  Simple really to go back through any purebred pedigree and you will see how close they all are.  An outcross can not help but make them genetically healthier.  Duh.  But notice I did not say it should be done nor did I say it would imporve their traits, other than health and vigor.

Everyone talks out of their ass sometimes, but we are all not created equal.  Some have smarter asses.

Gotta run.

Good. We agree that tests are not representative of the working counterparts. Therefore we can both agree with VKF that herding trials have nothing to do with defining the best at herding?

Just wondering what was flawed about your previous research on wolves that would make you now advocate it. Though I believe somewhere there was one line that said you didn't advocate it. I could be mistaken though since the rest  seemed to see it as the only possibility of an outcross. People often do further research on subjects and find that they were wrong so I am  not  saying it makes you any different than anyone else.

Please do not get defensive or bait as I have not and have no interest in a spat.

And I want to make this very clear. I did not find that thread by going through your posts for a search word. I found it looking for one I had started some time ago and it had good information on it. I only found it for the purpose of sharing that previous thread. So don't feel as though you're being targeted.

AATD  Good posts and thank you for the link.

Do Right  A perception from a board reader - perhaps you do not mean to but of all the posters on this thread you come across as the most contentious and a "right" fighter.

I would like to ask some of our German friends who have read the original edition of The GSd in Word and Picture IN GERMAN what the book says on the wolf issue. While I have seen comments likes yours re the English edition cited many many times, I have yet to see a copy of the page in the original English translation that you mentioned ( and have not responded to Ceph w/ the page number). Can you scan it for us?  

I have never see a reference to the same info in the German edition and the problem w/ translations is that they are translations and the accuracy all depends on the translators skill AND agenda. In addition as we all know even today, dog language is very idiomatic and literal transalation does not work.

I'm also a bit confused re your postings on the wolf crossing issues. Certainly in January on the thread that AATD posted you sounded like you agreed w/ VKF view of the instability of such crosses and you certainly were not championing them then - " I have researched it and find that it is a bad idea all around. Even though all dogs come from wolves, and wolves were used in the last hundred years in the developement of our beloved GSD's, it is being used stupidly all over the country. There is a place just down the street from me that "does it". Here is thier web site.
http://www.bright.net/~k9s/
I have visited shelters that specialize in wolf hybrid rescues and all of those dogs are head cases, by normal human standards. Of course they are perfectly normal for a wolf's standard."      Are you just trying to be a Devil's Advocate?

Finally I am very surprised by your somewhat vitriolic views taking the position that Capt Max  and his breed are grand failures - certainly does not sound like it's coming from someone who loves the breed and understands its successes as well as failures. Perhaps the time has come for you to find another breed wh/ fits you better? I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of folks who have loved , cherished, worked with, been saved by, guided by , rescued by German Shepherds would not consider the grand experiment a failure.

Jeff,  Just a fyi question if I may . I have heard it often stated that working mal breeders in Europe perdiodically ( routinely, frequently, sometimes - the word will vary) go out and do a cross breeding and then bring that back into the lines for the purpose of maintaining the workability.   Is this true?  I think you mentioned a ring dog that was a shepinois but was he then taken back into the mal lines?  If this is true besides the GSD what other breeds do they use ( Dutchies? Other Belgian breeds?) Thanks just curious.