by 4pack on 28 November 2007 - 17:11
I would like to start a discussion about the different lines of GSD. How many out there want to bring the GSD back to just one type? How many think it even possible? Also why would you want this?
Reason I ask is not just for a better topic here but also my curiosity. My own opinion is that I am fine with the working lines and don't want them turned into a hoity toity ring prancer. I have been turned off show lines by events in my life and what I have seen. I believe some High lines can be bred in, to improve structure but we also already have very nice V rated workingline dogs being used to imrove on this. Do show line breeders use working line dogs to improve grips and drive? Who believes in mixing the lines to get a "whole" dog and who doesn't think this approach will work? Will there ever be a day when a working line will make VA?
Personally I am fine with the division of lines. It satisfies more people that way maybe. On the other hand though...which is the more correct? I know the show liners believe their dogs structurally superior and we will always hear about the show dogs that still work but how many are really strong? How many are just skating by? Then we have the working lines. Ugly little bastards they are! How many V rated WL are out there that really kick ass? Should only Vrated and above dogs be recomended for breeding?
Why does it seem the standards are always falling instead of getting tougher? Shouldn't it go the other way if we were really trying to improve the breed?
I'm sure this will turn into a heated debate sooner or later but sometimes thats a good thing. My opinions are always subject to change, I hope others are as well. All it takes is the right explenation for someone to think a little differently . Lets hope this topic can do that for a few of us.
by Q Man on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
There will never be a day when the Working Lines and Show Lines are one again...Too many people have too many ideas of what they'd like in the breed...I think that one day there will be two different breeds of dog...I also feel that it is possible for the Show Lines to use some of the working lines in the breeding to better their working ability...but NEVER the other way around...simply because to use Show Lines back into the Working Lines will only water down the Working Lines working ability even more then they already are...It is already hard enough to find GOOD working GSD's...I don't mean mediocre dogs...I am referring to top drive dogs with clear heads...
I do think that the Show Lines dogs are beautiful in respect to most of what they are...with some exceptions of course...I think the Show Line GSD's working ability has been put on the back burner for the sake of the Color...and other qualifications...Where as most Working Line GSD's first qualification to to produce good working ability...
by darylehret on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
I wish the showlines could just be their own separate breed, but money and politics won't allow it. Too many fortunes tied up in their dogs to just toss them. If you're going to mix, just don't breed a showline that can't work, or a workingline that isn't pretty. Tell the rest to "Evacuate the Pool"!.
by 4pack on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
Maybe if someone just peed in the pool? LOL It might make room for the hard core.
by Sunsilver on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
Working lines are ugly??
I have a request: could someone please post a link to some nice V-rated working line dogs? I'd like to dispute that.
Meanwhile, for your viewing enjoyment, I present one of those purty show-line dogs:
Don't wet yourself laughing...
by sueincc on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
I think there will always be a distinct difference between the work & show lines. Especially because some of us prefer working & others prefer show. I would say different, not better. Thanks to the reguirements of the breed survey, the differences aren't as alarming or as extreme as what you see in other breeds such as goldens, setters and now, even border collies in the USA. Also thanks to those who thought up and those who implemented the Universal Seiger award.
"Why does it seem the standards are always falling instead of getting tougher? Shouldn't it go the other way if we were really trying to improve the breed?" (4Pack)
Especially when it comes to trials!
by DeesWolf on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
I agree, this will probably become a heated debate. My opinion, is that I do not like the division of the breed. I understand it, how it happened, why it happened, and I don't like it. I love my german show line dogs! BUT, I HATE (that is a strong word I do not use often) what has become of them. I do not like that the majority of breedings are geared toward winning in a ring at the risk of losing what the dog is best admired for.
I would like to see a coming together of the lines. I think the only way that would happen is if admirers of the german show line wake up and stop breeding watered down versions of the GSD. I would like to see true working ability in all of the dogs and not just a "train to" mentality. There is entirely too much cammo of flaws, and I am not talking structurally either.
The goal in my breeding program is to incorporate and produce dogs that can work. If they look pretty while doing it, that is the icing on the cake. My dogs will never win Sieger Shows, but they will wow the crowd with working ability. I plan to breed to a working line dog in a couple of years to bring in more of what I complain the line doesn't have. Currently, I have a very good program and am always looking to improve.
I believe that the standards in some areas are slipping and we are cheating ourselves and future generations. Have we learned nothing from the history of our breed? I don't want to see standards lessen in either the working trials or the show ring, BUT hell, let's have some damn truth in the show ring for a change!
There are some incredibly gorgeous working line dogs out there that make my knees weak and color me green with envy. Then there are gorgeous show line dogs out there that make me ill with embarrassment for their lack of working ability. Especially, when I see people cheer and oooooh and aaaaaah over the looks, and turn a blind eye to the lack of character and temperament.
There are two ways to correct the short comings of the show line, stop breeding the dogs for the looks and start looking to the working lines for TRUE character and temperament. Second, stop the kennel blindness, and stop breeding black and red retrievers. There is NO such thing as the Golden Middle! That is a term used to justify the watering down of a noble honest WORKING dog! Just so Joe Q Public can have a GSD. Not everyone who loves the breed should own one! The evidence in that is in every shelter and rescue in the country.
As long as there is an "US and THEM" mentality, in conjunction with the watering down of this great dog...how are we ever to maintain the integrity of the breed we all love so much?
Now that I have painted a huge bull's eye on my back, I look forward to reading the responses of others.
by 4pack on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
Sunsilver I was making a joke. I own working line dogs. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/487512.html
by Get A Real Dog on 28 November 2007 - 18:11
by ziegenfarm on 28 November 2007 - 19:11
deeswolf, i have not forgotten your very nice showline bitch. folks, you need to watch this vid, if you haven't before. deeswolf knows what she's talking about. i give you a hearty pat on the back......right on the bullseye!!!
i also agree, there cannot be and shouldnot be a golden middle. that is not to say that we cannot use very carefully selected individuals from both camps for breeding, but the core and focus should remain on a whole dog with good health, good structure, working ability and excellent character.
thanks for your fine post.