They are all the same breed - Page 10

I'm trying very hard to see any correlation at all between a War Dog within 5 generations of Beowolfe and a modern German Showline. I have a pink papered Showline out of two V rated parents and can not honestly see any resemblence.  I love hr to death and she's a joy to be around, don't get me wrong. I just don't see the resemblence in any aspect.

Verily, Jeff, that particular dog is the poster child for the statement that the more extreme showlines are 'hyenas with chow faces.' Or, as someone else so eloquently put it, 'dog in front, frog behind!'

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Sunsilver/ExtremeGermanShowType.jpg

This is an excellent thread.  Thanks for starting it.  Personally, I am learning a  LOT regarding the Am Lines that I never knew.

Like Sue, I am a dyed in the wool, all-the-way-to-the-bone working-line person.  But, a working line dog will NOT last long if the conformation is so off that it cannot manage the jumps, wall, the push off of the courage test, the stamina needed for tracking, etc.  People far more knowledgable than I have lamented the common "back problems" that are creeping into our gene pools.  My vet, who also does chiropractic and other sports vet medicine, has cited the  pelvic rigidity we are breeding into the gsd as the reason for back problems and the contricted (rear leg) muscle issues that are not only becoming common in working gsds, but is apparently ONLY seen in gsds.    We  have and are sacrificing a lot to get that almighty gait, even when it is NOT show ring dogs.   This is o ne of the things Raiser was addressing in that overly publicized statement about bringing in other blood.  We must do something to roll back the clock on the structural issues that we have created.  That goes for all the lines:  working, show and  American-lines.    The differences are man-made; that is where the problems always start. 

It is so nice to have a discussion/thread that stays focused on the topic and involves reasoned discourse.  Thanks to everyone!!

N

Agree totally Mystere. But it sort of starts with man making the breed, it seems to me. That puts even more onus with humans to keep faults, both physical and temperament, to a minimum by breeding without regard to trends within any line.

  Well said, Nia.  One thing, as much as for me the working lines is what I like, I totally respect many of the show lines and do not discount them.  I know you don't either.  We both have friends on both sides of the fence!!

A slightly related issue:

Has anyone else but me thought that a heck of a lot of our working line dogs have really straight/steep shoulders & croups?  Even though this doesn't effect much on the schutzhund field, doesn't it have an effect on endurance and as a result, tending abilities?  Even though very few of us tend sheep, shouldn't our dogs retain at least the physical attributes that would allow them to if we so choose?  After all, we pride ourselves on the fact that GSDs are "allrounders", no?

Sorry, thought the entire thing posted but only half did for some reason.

So, my point was that for a while Rin tin tin was the popularly known dog in the US. He obviously had the hardness and nerve to go through battle conditions and yet still be stable enough to do Lord knows how many publicity appearances with the public.  He seemed typical of the lines at the time which were neither show nor working but GSD.

Fast forward that image to his decendents today as well as showlines from Germany. It is my understanding that his decendents are Am. Showlines.  My whole point is that I can see a progression from Rin Tin Tin to a working line but not to a Showline. Any showline. It is just very much an illustration of the breed as a whole, it seems. Almost like two totally different breeds between the generations.

It seems as though you can track this progression from GSD to showline through his decendents on the website for the current breeder.  I have to admit that I took the easy way out in tracking this dog because it was easier than tracking another line through all the pedigrees. All on one page. What can be easier than that?

It's really just "there" when you see it all contained on one page.

allabout~ can you post a link to the page you are refering?

Sunsilver,

I don't like the type of showline dog you put up as an example either. Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of seeing the same dog over and over again. Who is that dog anyway? Don't bother, it does not matter. This is not one of the often used stud dogs anyway. None of the most used males and top producers look like that. So, please get off your trip about the banana backs. To how many shows have you been? How many of these dogs are like this one have you seen? Have you ever been to the German Sieger Show? The quality of these dogs there will blow you away. Even workingline people have said that. I recommend you visit this event at least once in your lifetime.

About the roached back: There are even individual workingline dogs who roach their backs. It is a matter of angulation in the front and rear. Dogs who are not conditioned and do not have the correct anatomy will get tired and often "roach" their back up after a while of gaiting. That is why you hear in the judge' critique: " roaches his back up". It is not visible until after the dog tires out. You would be surprised how many faults a skilled handler can hide. And that is why judges make these dogs run and run and run. To see them break down! Well, not quite, but almost, lol! There have been threads about that back in movement, either here or on GSDWorld. Some posters are very knowledgable in that aspect, but their contributions are too dry and boring to read for some. I can only recommend this, very educational.

Sunsilver, what kind of breeding program do you have? Do you show your dogs? American showring or German? Sorry, but I would really like to know what credentials you and others have, so I can decide to take you serious or not. I always appreciate any opinion, even if I can't identify myself with it. But it is the way these opinions are laid out that often rub me the wrong way. I am not singling you out. There are others. Somewhere, somebody wrote that showlines must have more incidences of HD because of the extreme angulation. When I read that I can only shake my head in dibelief! Oh please, have you taken a look at a GSD's skeleton? Do you see where the hip joint is in relation to the croup and the angulation? Nobody is trying to turn a workingline person into a show enthusiast and vice versa, but it is true. the workingline people argue a lot and can never agree on anything, even amongst themselves.  In that respect, show people are better. I have friends on both sides and like it that way. Why can't we appreciate each other for what we do and acknowledge outstanding dogs on both sides without ridiculing them and their lines? Sue, I am using your words, sorry! But you hit the nail on the head.

Sue,

you are right in your observation about many of the workingline dogs having steep fronts (especially upper arms) and short steep croups. A lot of them are also rather long-bodied. That is why a lot of judges and well-known workingline breeders call for improvements in the anatomy of the workingline dog.I talked to one well-known breeder just a few days ago on the phone and he told me too that he is very concerned with structure and would never keep or go to an ugly "Bock" (German somewhat nasty term for a less than good looking male).

Chris

4pack-rintintin.com

Seems like I remember a thread some time back that these dogs on the site.