They are all the same breed - Page 11

Ol Line Rebel, I stand corrected ,we are talking about the same person. Just out of curiosity do you remember a dog in the south in the 70's called, Ch Imperial Anchor, I think he was out of sally holcombe's breeding.

Chirs, I and many others have your back.  You do see beyond and realize what is really important.  I'm sorry I asked you to come to this dog fight.

Silbersee, I'd rather not give the dog's name anyway, out of respect for the breeder's feelings. It was a 'for sale' ad on the PDB some months ago. As far as I recall, the dog has no titles. I could post pictures of American showlines that are just as cringe-worthy. There ARE nice German showlines out there. The three examples I posted of German working lines, show lines and American showlines are all, IMO excellent examples of their breed. And, it probably will surprise you to know that I own a 10 mo. old female that's half German showline, half American. I also own a rescue that appears to be German working lines, and he's an absolute gem as far as temperment goes. I've trained him to be my hearing ear dog. So, I can indeed appreciate each of the lines for their own unique traits, even if there are certain things about them I don't like.

I have owned a GSD since 1983. At times, I've owned two. A new one always seems to find its way into my life as the old one is nearing the end of its years. My 10 month old pup is my first registered dog, all the others were rescues. I plan to show her, and possibly breed her if the AKC ever gets the damn papers straightened out!  I have done tracking, obedience and agilty with my previous dogs.

Like most N. Americans, I grew up thinking GSD's should look like Rin Tin Tin, London, and Pax (Longstreet's white GSD.) I saw Chuck Eisenman perform with his Littlest Hobo dogs during the 70's, and it blew me away. During the 80's, I started to notice a change in the dogs I was seeing on the street. Holy s**t, I thought, what have they done to them? They walk like they're crippled! It looks like a strong wind would blow them over!  Neither of my first two GSD's were built like that. As a matter of fact, I had one breeder tell me she thought Tasha wasn't purebred, because her bum was almost as high as her head. Another breeder, Wolfram Klose of Havelberg Dog Academy, took a look at her, and said "she is the old-fashioned Shepherd  like we used to breed in Germany after the war."

Most of my exposure to the German dogs has been since I came to this site. Another WTF??? moment when I started to see the banana backs. I am a biologist and naturalist by training, and no other dog or wild canine is built like that! I began to search for the reasons behind the change, and none of what I found made sense.

So, I don't have a lot of experience in showing, and none in breeding, but if you're going to change the appearance of the GSD, and breed something that doesn't look at all like the illustrations in the Standard, you'd better have a damn good reason. So far, the ones I've heard sound pretty lame.

That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it. For now, anyway... Meanwhile, I'll keep on learning, and probing, and listening to other's opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

Dawgs, the Rin Tin Tin dogs would be laughed out of the American show ring. The vision of the lady who raises them (Daphne Hereford) is to keep the dog as close as she can in appearance to the original Rin Tin Tin. This has become increasingly difficult, as the American dogs have become more and more angulated and stretched. She crossed the dogs with the Hoofprint white shepherds, as they were the best out there in terms of structure, and also had the best history as far as tracking hip and elbow dysplasia and genetic problems. Unfortunately, too many of the dogs are now pale and washed out in appearance. It seems her latest outcross is to a German dog. I need to go look at the site and see what I can find out about him. I don't know if he's showline or working line.

She does not show the dogs, but many are used as therapy, assistance and SAR dogs, and she also used to provide dogs for protection work. There is a foundation called Rinty for Kids that provides assistance dogs to handicapped children, and at least one dog from every litter is chos

Oops, something ate the end of my post!

......at least one dog from every litter is chosen to be trained for the foundation.

And I stand corrected, the latest Rin Tin Tin outcross is to to this dog, and American showline male: http://www.castlekennels.com/

Sunsilver, that's the problem when people don't know if something has been exhausted.  Rin Tin Tin was, no doubt, something to marvel at. Back then. Everything has a shelf life and if one tries to milk it too long the contents get rancid. History can not stop so everything can be the way "it was".

Maybe there would have been a better result if she had progressed the line instead of trying to freeze it in time. Reminiscing about the way it should have stayed isn't the answer, there are a lot who try to but it never seems productive. JMO

Nice thread. I've really gotten a lot from it.

Great Informative thread....Couldn't quit reading    .....Learned a lot about the American lineage and nice to keep it going ......Have looked many times at the Rin Tin Tin web and wondered why she thinks those are  in any way , form or shape what a representative of what a shepherd's color, or conformation should be.....I understand what she is trying to do...but is this how you preserve a name that at one time was the most popular name in the homes across America.????

It seems a family trying to preserve what they like, again a popularity program, shows deteriation of structure and working ability....

I went looking in Dog Fancy and USA Dogs for the article about  The Rin Tin Tin kennel in Texas, and came upon the picture and explanation of  none other than   " The King Shepherd."    I almost choked on the article...so where did this break away come from ......?

I was fortunate, a few years back to meet a wonderful german man in his late 70s who stopped me one day while I was hiking with one of my dogs. He asked questions, and told me about part of his life in Germany. He was old school and had grown up on a working farm where for generations they had herding dogs. They didn't do anything with these dogs except these dogs worked every day. He liked my dog, her attitude, but commented that she wasn't aloof the way a GSD should be. What he liked most about her was her structure, even though she is a bit longer than she should be. What he pointed out to me about her has stuck with me for years. He said she had the perfect back for true work. While standing at rest, relaxed and not in the "stack" he could rest a stein of beer on her back and it wouldn't slide off, fall off, tip off, it would set there.  He gave me "tips" about breeding, training, and a few other things I found amusing. But, his parting words never have left me, "No matter what you choose to do in your breeding program, if you can't rest your stein on the back of your breeding stock, you will never produce a structurally sound dog."  I wish I had retained his name in my memory, as I would really like to know if he really knew what he was talking about.  I do have one stein that was given to me many years ago and is entirely to precious to me to attempt this, but I have rested a can of fine american beer on the back of all of my dogs.

Great story, Dee's Wolf. I've also heard that when the stein is sitting there filled to the brim, that dog should be able to gait without spilling a drop of said beer (be it German or American brewed) .

LOL, Blitzen!  Yes, good story!

Dees Wolf, I'm curious to know, where would you rest the stein? On what part of the back?

Don't most of the sight hounds have roached backs?