They are all the same breed - Page 4

I don't see the big to do.  So what if there is a division in a breed.  It will take much more effort to restore the entire breed to one than to just try and improve on what we have.  People that are looking for a working dog will seek that out.  I honestly don't think that someone looking for a working dog will go to the local show.  The biggest problem is in the general public.  These are the majority stock owners in the breed.  They outnumber all show and working homes combined.  They are the most uneducated group out there.  Most of them think that a GSD only comes in Blk and tan.  They have no idea what the ideal temperment of a "real" Gsd should be.  So let these people go to the local show and look at all the pretty GSD's with no drive and their asses dragging on the astro-turf, because I would hate to see them get a "real" GSD.  It would probably end up in the pound. 

People love the GSD.  They are the 3rd highest registered dog in the US.  Maybe it is a good thing that there are a ton of shitters out there for everyone to enjoy.

Louise,

I agree with you about Dallas. Sadly, he appeared to be the best the american show line had to offer. That and I think Jimmy could show a goat to BIS. I am not a fan of the american show line dog at all. I don't like the overall look or temperament, or lack there of.

I see several american line dogs in the shelter, as well as through rescue entirely too often. Not that we don't see working or german show line, because we do. The American dogs are the ones who usually do not pass the evaluation for adoption, and sadly are euthanized. Again, I see another case of breeding to what will win, and put large amounts of money in someone's pocket. Money makers are not always the best bet, remember the DeLorean? Then there is always the novice who can state, "my dog's grandfather was a champion, that's why we are breeding her".

If you are the "lone ranger" than I am happy to be tonto. My show lines can work too!

There does seem to be a resurgence of correctly structured ( and often beautiful) working line dogs in the last 5-10 years. I'm not sure if it's because people are paying more attention to it or if it is just a confluence of genes coming together - remember most of these dogs have great AND beautiful dogs behind them. Personally, I think it is a combination because I have seen time and again that what is massed in the back end of pedigrees had influence. Good and bad it can pop out and surprise you.

Here's my link to a breeder that's trying to do things right.  The great preponderance of her dogs are hip and elbow clear, many have Sch3 ( even the bitches) and she has a number of V and Sg rated dogs ALL from working lines. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/385839.html

Dee's  Wolf - great post. I agree wholeheartedly. I think we need to start putting together coalitions of like minded folks. Good luck with your breeding program.

Sunshine - "The split didn't happen overnight, but as we all know, back in the 50's and early 60's, the breed was one."  Actually that is not really correct.  In many ways there were just as many types of GSD then as today tho w/ a different basis. The "client state of SV" mentatlity did not exist then . Because of the 2 World Wars - especially WW2 most countries went there own way and had their own homegrown lines. In the 60's the American dog was quite different from the English which was different from the Dutch which was different from the Swedish and so on. Now there was always a sine curve that went on in all these countries where German Imports were used when available but they were never the dominant force as they are in client states today.  Three things happened in 70's and 80's. One was the increasing bifurcation of the breed into working and show lines. Two was the very successful marketing of the GSD "product" especially by the Martins and the development of the "client state" philosophy where other coutnries were dependent on Germany for their successful dogs ( look how long it has taken for  homebred German dogs in the US to attain V and VA status here and notice how they rarely are allowed the same in Germany - in fact I do not think any has achieved the VA there). The Third thing was the American show communities resistant to becoming a "client state: and insisting on going there own way and away from the periodic infusion of German blood that was common right up to Lance ( look at his pedigree - he's a very german dog)

TIG, could you explain a bit more about what happened with the Martin Brothers and the 'client state'? I'm a bit puzzled as to just what happened.

Yes, very true about Lance of Fran-Jo. And there were differences in structure between countries, but I don't see it as being as pronounced as it is now. And I also don't really see that America had its own type until the late 60's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but up until then, most American GV's were German dogs, or dirct descendants of German dogs.

There are far too many GSDs and GSD breeders today. Unfortunately, the Internet just makes it worse. The GSD's worst problem is popularity. Unfortunately, it's been in too many movies (and there's yet another one this Christmas) and TV shows. And the SV has been the best breed organization in the history of dogs in terms of being a global marketing machine. The GSD has by far the strongest brand equity of any breed today. And let's face it, the GSD is a beautiful looking animal. Anytime you mass market something the mean standard value goes down. Make 10x times the volume and you have 9 more chances of getting it wrong, especially when trying to manipulate nature. The most difficult thing to achieve is balance. That's what the Golden Middle stands for, a word that von Stephanitz himself coined because he understood what balance meant.

Balance means having a dog that is correct conformation wise according to a written standard and can (potentially) work as defined by a standardized testing procedure (schutzhund and HGH herding). It means a dog that is balanced structurally: front, middle and back working in harmony and in economy. It means a dog that has a temperament balanced enough to allow it to live among normal people in normal homes as a normal dog. It does not mean a dog that can do everything or be the best at everything (that's called a comicbook superhero). It doesn't mean extreme bitework. It doesn't mean a dog so hard that only the best trainers can find a way to train it. It doesn't mean a dog that can do well at every kind of dog sport man cares to invent (I don't think v. Stephanitz cared abour ringsports or frisbee catching and neither do I LOL). It doesn't mean a dog that fits a fashionable color - nowhere does the standard call for a brown/black saddle dog. It doesn't mean a dog that can look good gaiting in a showring but can't accelerate, stop, jump or maneuver.

Balance is difficult to achieve because you have to meet a long list of criteria simultaneously and often overdoing one aspect throws the whole system out of balance. It's like cooking great food or making good wine - and even the experts there don't get it right 100% of the time. Its just easier to focus on a shorter part of the long list and underachieve on other parts of the list. It is simply too demanding for most people today. In the 60s, the great  GSD breeders did it - it was only 20 years after the end of World War II and people in their 40s were used to surmounting difficulties and challenges. Today life is too easy - why make GSD breeding demanding - take the easy way out. Anybody can do it.

And that is precisely what the role of an organization like the SV should be doing. Having such high enough and demanding enough quality standards for BALANCE - The Golden Middle (achieving high standards on every single point of a long criteria list), that only a few people can achieve it. We don't need a lot of people breeding GSDs. Dogs have 10 puppies to a litter. Anyone who really wants a Mal or a Golden Retriever s/d get those breeds, they have 10 puppies to a litter too. But the natural tendency of breed organizations is oriented toward promoting volume not quality. More popular means more fees, more revenues, more money, more power, better for the ego, etc.

The ironic part about all this ( and I will date myself w/ this quote) is to quote POGO "We have met the enemy and he is us"  Re the difference between German and American dogs. After WW2 German took Rolf sons to Axel daughters and here we are while Americans took Axel sons to Rolf daughters and here they are. Simarily look at you working lines and guess what they almost all go back to the top VA dogs of the 60's and 70s and even some 80s.  The biggest difference is the influence of the "minor" lines ( which germany used to pay attention to maintaining but that seems to have disappeared in the Martin era). Increasingly the Mutz Marko, Lierberg, Klodo and his sire Arras were important on the working sire while losing prescence in the show. Ironically the show lines known today for working strength go back to Mutz or a Quanto/Klodo cross.

Whoops sorry for the history lesson> Can you tell that I too get frustrated by all this bifurcation of lines. Which leads me to Q man - "There will never be a day when the Working Lines and Show Lines are one again."  I can only hop and pray that you are dead wrong.  We are breeding ourselves into black holes of extinction by pursuing bifucation. The GSD has the highest number of known hereditary health problems in the dog world. Instead of  talking about cross breeding lets put the breed back together AND lets get better about going out and finding actual working dogs whether they be K9s or herding or assistance dogs or SAr dogs and make usre we are incorporating those into the gene pool.

I'm sure your next question is do I live what I say.  Please meet Remy http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/remy.htm  who was imported to this country to produce police dogs. This pedigree does not reflect it but her dam side is all KNVP dogs. She are I are a H.O.T. team despite the obvious difficulties (she basically free tracks and retrieves the articles for me).  Any helper who has worked her or any one who has seen her work will tell you how serious AND clear headed she is.  Because of her public access rights she was also the most visible representation in Sacramento this year in the fight against AB1634. If click on the links for media there are a number of photos of Remy at the rallies and news confrences http://blog.petpac.net/blog/.

This is not a "Golden Middle" dog by any means. She is a serious working dog and a great representation for the breed. So Q man what is there not to like about a dog like this?

Beth

I'd like to hear from people like Bob-O, SS, Molly, Pia, Jeffrey,  Vikram, VKFGSD, olskoolgsds, Mystere, Gustav, Bob McKown, jletcher18, Ajay Singh, and many more....

Me too, 4Pack.  You have started a great thread and I hope the dialogue continues.

Everyone's heart and mind is in the correct place. I agree that from now on be two (2) distinctively different lines, but neither needs to be crap.

By the way, I was with some of my dogs at an A.K.C. show and the Dallas passed near on his way to the ring. I think his handler was surprised when I paid him a compliment, but I thought that the Dallas was a fine animal. It is a shame that he is no longer with us as he could have offered more to the American-type dog.

Regards,

Bob-O

So in a nutshell... don't breed for extremes... SHOW  that your  Working-lines are level headed... ( get them Koer'd and be critiqued in an S.V. type of show...) let them mingle with show people and prove they're not just personal trophies... Educate the show people what the TRUE TEMPERAMENT of the GSD should be... Should be ALOOF but not HOSTILE (unlike some owners that I know...) And for Show-line people, don't breed just for money... make sure you have your dogs health certified, trained for work SchH, Hgh, SAR... follow what the S.V. requires before breeding and select the breeding partners... Minimum should be... at least 2 years of age before breeding, getting at least SchH 1 or equivalent of Training, getting at least G "Gut" in an S.V.- type of show (not Blue-ribbon championships like what the UKC or AKC does...) Follow our breeds paths... Don't decide your own... or else get yourself a MAL or a Collie instead...

My two cents...