They are all the same breed - Page 5

Wow I'm surprised no arguments yet but really not much has been said. My personal thought is that here in the states anyway, things will stay the same. Some breeders will breed for the standard, and most of the others for their own aggendas whatever that may be. Extreme dogs will always be around and always be bred. They have their uses in the workforce as it should be. Someone somewhere is breeding crap/pets/sport dogs/show dogs/herding dogs/tracking dogs/PPdogs/military/detection/all around dogs and so on. Some folks concentrate in a certain area and others try harder to get a more rounded dog out of their breedings. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless it's willy nilly and they just don't know what the hell they are doing. We all know there is plenty of that going on. If you are going to do SAR you might be better off going to a breeder that focusses on tracking, or a police officer to a breeder that excels in bitework. You don't send your neighbor to buy from a military supplier if he wants a dog for his kids to play ball with though.

Sad fact is there are scarily few people breeding for a well rounded healthy dog. Like Ceph said, I'd like to see research into finding the healthiest lines or structure that holds up best under working conditions.

Silbersee I'd like to hear your take on all of this too. I know you breed quality dogs and your working lines have super structure. If your a breeder out there of working line dogs and you follow the SV rules of Koering and titles, hip and elbow certs I'd like to hear from you or leave a link to your webpage.

hmmm.........

I want to get this straight so that I may absorb it and learn.

If I breed a VA1 dog from the BSZS to a V1 dam, I am doing a dis-service to this illustrious breed.  Because it generally is not from what most would consider "working lines", and if a GSD isn't from working lines and has parents that are proven to work, then that VA1 dog shouldn't even have ever been born.?  Is that correct?

Funny how whenever this subject comes up (every other day), some will tout their showlines as "showlines that can and do work", yet that gets disregarded as if it was never said.  Or, someone will reference a dog or two from the past, a showline dog, and discuss how THAT dog could work and produced progeny who did and could work.  Yet, these statements are disregarded, even after several will come on here and say how they agree.

If I want (because that is what I want) a showline dog, and I want to breed showline dogs, I can not just title them Sch I, II, or even III, before breeding them, but instead, should only breed "hard ass" working line dogs, or I am doing a dis-service to the breed as a whole.  How many times have some "working line" pushers come on here and said that most Schutzhund titled dogs are "shit"?  Maybe a hundred times this year?

I don't even want to get into the whole "is a sport dog actually a working dog" argument, which is another "touchy" subject.  A dog that sniffs drugs for the DEA could be either a beagle of a GSD, or several other dogs that do not have to be "hard ass" bite capable dogs.  They are used for their nose and nothing more.

I have a black and tan, female 3 year old that I rescued, AKC and a nice dog but she needs lots of attention as she was always kenneled and is ravenous for human attention.  She doesn't have a mean bone in her body except that she will bark at strangers.  Nothing more.  I met with a husband and wife today that are thinking of taking her.  They said that they had a SABLE GSD in years past but that they had to get rid of it as they had a child and did not trust that dog with their child because of its high strung temperment.  Chasing other animals, and going nuts trying to get at strangers through their fence.  Should I consider them for the rescue I have or should I tell them to get a stuffed animal GSD and just keep it by the fireplace?  That if they want a "correct" GSD, they will have to get a working line dog and "train it down".  They want a GSD for its appearance, both to their liking and to the public that might be thinking of doing harm to the wife or their property.

There is not enough time to type all of the hypocracy that shows up in these arguments about show vs working.  Some just think that they know best and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.   Stephanitz is mentioned most of the time, with his original desire of herding secondary and his "changed with the times second plan" taking the forefront.  Maybe if he was alive today, he would be more inclined because of the crime and such, to "change" the direction of his breed again.  Steering it towards family protection and bad guy deterence, with an offshoot line, being bred for military and police jobs.

After all, are not the winners of the BSZS, which is controlled and put on by the SV, a creation of Stephanitz and his followers, SHOWLINES!!!?  All of the participants in these shows are titled in Schutzhund either I, II or III, yet it will be stated that only the titles obtained by "working line" dogs are real and the others are bought or just barely passed.  The SV made the GSD what it is today and they push the showlines much harder than they push the working lines.  Additio

Additionally, the world as a whole admires and desires the show lines over the working lines.  Except for a minority of GSD people.   hmmmm.....  I guess most of the worlds' people are idiots (which I actually agree with) but it is always those "other people" and never "me".

I'm just saying.

4Pack:  I sent Chris an email hoping she will participate.  She is another great breeder of primarily showline dogs that can work too. 

I don't believe I said all showlines are crap Do Right. I actually know a few people who breed great looking dogs that still work, have courage and are as stable as a dog should be. I'd never say your VA1 and V1 wouldn't be a good breeding. I'd hope they actually got their SchH titles fairly and with good scores. I'd hope they were a good match had appropriat GSD drives, on top of allot of other things. I would hope you took the actual dogs into consideration and not just their VA or V status. Too many people already breed in that manner.

Yes I do prefer working line dogs and that's my choice. I don't think anyone on this thread has bashed the other side of the fence and I get the assumption you think I want prey monsters in my working lines. I don't and I don't want Mal like dogs, or pinging off the wall crazy dogs. Some do, me no. I have a child and children around. I couldn't handle that kind of dog at this time in my life but I am not appossed to others breeding to those types of dogs. I enjoy watching those types of dogs work and I'd buy pups from those types of dogs. Imperative is STABLE in the head, solid nerve and bidability. Thankfully my pups bidability kicked in right around the time he hit 70lbs because he ws getting to be a little much. Does my dog like to bite? Yes. Is my dog safe? Yes. I trust my dog around my own child in most situations so far. Can my dog some in the house? Yes. He has 2 toys that are his to do whatever he wants with when he is inside. Not allowed to mess with my things and for the most past he doesn't.

Your rescue sounds like mine. Sounds like a good match for those folks if they are interested. I have my own rescue out back, sounds about the same temp as mine except mine is a tad dog aggresive towards strange leashless dogs,(wont bother a dog who is with it's owner) very territorial and she's my daughters protector. Looks like hell on wheels through the fence but is as friendly as a dog should be once introduced.

I have no beef with nice stable, driven showline dogs. I don't believe in breeding any GSD that doesn't have the workability the standard calls for. Same goes for working line dogs. I'd like to see all workingline breeders show their dogs at least once, koered and titled, the same as show lines. I'd like to see judges actually judge and measure correctly every dog in the ring and not place by color. Most of all, I'd like to see more breeders step up and do these things without having it made a rule. Breed less litters of better quality.

Another thing... notice I am asking for opinions of people on both sides and even American line breeders. No hypocracy or bashing going on. I just want to know peoples thoughts and ideas, what they are striving for in their own programs.

Thank you Sue.

4pack, one of the best threads in awhile.  Good and thoughtful responses from most everybody.

DeesWolf, once again your logic shines through.  I've said it before and no doubt will again.  Thank you.

Our highest drive working line bitch is curled up on her couch right now.  Stable minds and nerves are so very important.

DDR great post re balance and raiding the level of difficulty in breeding. Hear! Hear! Unfortunately it will not happen for one very large reason - the elephant in the living room that no one every really wants to acknowledge - if I may quote you  " And the SV has been the best breed organization in the history of dogs in terms of being a global marketing machine"  The reality is GSDs are a prime money making commodity for Germans and the SV and they are not willingly going to give that up.

Sunsilver my apologies for the delay in answering re the client state and the influence of  German dogs on American type but was off to the vets.  I think the easiest way to explain is to have you imagine or draw 2 sine(or wave)  curves. Note the peaks the throughs and that there is a median that a line can be drawn thru. The first curve represents the importation and influence of German dogs in the US. The peaks are times of high #s of German imports and the troughs of none or vey litte. The breed in this country was obviously started by imports - most by very rich people who maintained large breeding and show kennels such as Geraldine Dodge and her Griselda Farms. during WW1 imports obviously dropped off but the breeders get breeding with what they had developing their own lines. Then came the depression. during this time there were German imports and often they were the Grand Victors but in the 30's you start to see dogs with more "home grown" lines as well suceeding at a high level and the emrgence of breeders like Marie Leary and Cosalta Kennels. At the very end of the 30's however we had several very influential imports including Pfeffer v Bern and his sister and half brother. Imports then slowly dried up again ( a trough on the sine curve) with the advent of WW2 ( tho some came over as emigrants with their owners and others thru people like Ernie Loeb who were able to import in the early years of the war due to their connections. Once again breeding did not stop. It is during the late 30's to mid 50's that you saw the emergence of a number of very distinct American strains -Longworrth Kennels, Liebenstraum, San Miquel,  Rocky Reach. This is not tosay these folks neve used German dogs - they often did but they each had a vision and plan that was unique to their kennel and to America. Here is the 1949/50 GV http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kdogs/KirkSanMiguel.html and the 1953 GV http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/adogs/AlbertMiNoah.html and 1959  GV  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/rdogs/RedRockGino.html Some felt the "American" dogs had become too long and refined and so the German imports started on the up swing again. We start to see the difference as early as 1960 for example Ernestine's father and Grandfather were imports. Her father was the geat Berndv Kallengarten imported by Ernie Loeb. Bernd  brought masculinity, suspension, good fronts and was a great cross for the Troll Richterbach lines.

The biggest difference from today is that these German imports were bred into existing "American" lines essentailly acting as infusion of hybrid vigor.

1967 marked what was to become a watershed in the American GSD - it was the year that Lance became GV. Now if you look the interesting thing about Lance is he was a very "German" dog in mnay respects http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/Ldogs/LanceFranJo.html  Also interesting is that from the 30's on  the bitches were the representatives of the "American" style or breeding ( and there have been some great great bitches produced) See http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/GrandVictrixs.html The last German import to be a GV was in 1969 but the lst German import to be Grand Vitrix was a whole decade earlier in 1959.  Imports wer still coming in and being used but gradually at a lesser and lesser level. In 1972 the Grand Victrix was out of a Lance son by the daughter of a German sire 0 http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cbitches/CathwarLisaRob.html . Increasingly hower the German lines were moving back to the third and fourth generation such as in this GV  http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TellaheideGallo.html. The last GV to have a significant German presence in his pedigree was Impulse who Louise mentioned  and who is behind Dallas- primarily thru his dam's lines - http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kdogs/KismetImpulseBismark.html tho he was somewhat out of step even then if you look at the previous decade tor GV's hey were very " American" bred and style  dogs. Not to take anything away from Impulse who was a great dog- good character and great front among other things but the story told is Ernie Loeb who was judging that year was going to be darned that he would put up a GV that would live longer than 6 ( the early death syndrome had already started to show itself) so he cam back from the wash room and pointed to Impulse - who was 7 at the time. :)  While German dogs continued to be imported to this country at a low level and some successfully shown to their Championships and BIS wins, they were really not much used from this point on. This had has much to do with the 2nd since curve as anything else however.

The 2nd sine curve relates to style of dog. The 2 ends of the spectrum are 1.short coupled, tightly ligamented, shorter smaller body and 2. larger, longer ( or stretched as the Germans say) often loosley ligamented. A side player on style is color - darker vs classic saddle w/ distinct tans ( silver, orange, red etc) Sables and blacks while always around were almost always minor players.

4pack:  I did not address you as the "one" I was addressing with my remarks.  I actually was not addressing anyone in particular, just "voicing" my thoughts.  I intentionally did not address anyone specifically, because I have no desire for another of those ongoing tit-for-tats that are so common on this site.  Numerous proponents of working line dogs have stated that showline dogs are "crap".  Almost daily on this site.

However, since you believe I was addressing you in particular, I will have to clear that up by quoting someone else, who I have more in common with than dogs.  That is G.A.R.D.  On the thread about culling, he stated this:

"The working line dogs should be the hard ass, sharp, or aggressive dogs they should be, not for anything other than doing the bitework."

Now, I understand taking things out of context and making them sound worse than they were meant to sound and I do not wish to do that here, so I respectfully state that anyone who finds this statement not to their liking, please go and read his entirety of statements on that thread, to get the full flavor of his thoughts.  Now that I have covered my ass a little, I will address his statement and many other similar statements made by many working dog proponents over the past two years I have been coming to this site.

GARD's statement (and not only his, but his is the most recent I remember), contains the words "hard ass" and "aggressive dogs" with the word "or" in front of aggressive.  This is signaficant in that it illustrates the mentality of too many working line enthusiasts.  I have stated before on other threads that the downfall of the working line GSD will not be BYB's or showline breeders, but will be this mentality.  The GSD should not be an aggressive dog, nor a hard ass.  It should be a protective dog, of its owner, family and property, and confident in itself to not back down from another dog, a man or a loud sound.  It should be capable of mighty endurance, have better genetic health than it currently does, fearless in the face of unknown obstacles or threats (this does not mean aggressive), and MOST OF ALL, an all around good companion to its master and what is associated with its master.  I can find hard ass, aggressive dogs in the pounds all day long, but that does not mean we should start with them and produce a working breed.  We need to tone down the aggressive working dogs (off of the top of my head I could mention one who's name starts with a "B", that is famous for aggression, and another that starts with a "U").  These type of dogs will be the downfall of the GSD in society, not the showlines.

A line of dogs can be maintained for specific purposes, but should not be a line that is bred and trained by "sport" participants.  People participating in sports should understand that there is a point of no return, as illustrated by the Steroids in the MLB and WWF (which is not really a sport).  It should be about the training and cooperation of the sport dog, not the aggressiveness or hard assness (I just made up a new word).

I have stated before.  I am like Mit Romney.  He used to be for abortion, now he is against it.  I used to be for bite training, now I am against it, except for specialized units, not sporting games.  Our beloved breed will become banned in more and more places, become more of a legal and insurance liability, and be harmed much much more than having a line of "pretty" GSD's could ever do to the breed.  There is room for both, but those that have the aggressive biting ones need to take head.  They will be the ruination before they are the savior of this breed.