They are all the same breed - Page 6

Good thread 4pack.  I myself like things the way they are as I enjoy both lines but for a different purpose.  So I think it's important to keep them seperate as both sides like them for a variety of reasons one different than the other.  I don't think it's a split just in GSD's.  I can think of Labs for instance that can come from show or working lines.  Both look similar but are different just like the GSD.  My mother in law had the show lines and I had a working line.  I loved hers for it's lower keyed temperment where as mine was a high drive make you crazy dog. lol  I would have preferred to have the lower keyed dog that had the look and working ability of mine if we lived in a perfect world but that was probably wishful thinking much as in the GSD world.    The only lines I wished we could do away with are the American bred GSD's.  Just don't like the look AT ALL. 

How style plays into the place and influence of imports is that for most of the time I've been watching the breed the Germans and American appear to be on opposite ends of the sine curve. In the 50's when American dogs had become slighly long and less substantial ( #2 above) the Germans were breeding #1. Thus they could play a role in that balance equation that DDR talked about.  This then switched in the mid to late 60's and the Germans started to breed more stretched, lighter pigmented dogs just as the Americans were producing some really nice balanced dogs so gradually imports became less important. The real drive away from German dogs however came during the reign I believe it was Dr. Funk who created the era( for oh ever so long) of the banana back or roached dog with such tight ligamentation that they looked painful moving. These were some ugly assed dogs and this comment comes from someone who has had German dogs since the mid 70s.  The American breeders could see nothing in that equation that they could use and so less and less German imports were used.

This brings us up to the 1980's when a world revolution started to take place. Prior to that time most nations as America had done had a combination of their home grown lines ( for ex look at England and Holland) mixed with German imports on an ongoing basis but there was certainly a national flavor that was present. In addition each nation judged the GSD by their standard (and there were some small differences) with their own home grown judges. In other words a pretty normal state of affairs. However there was this problem that imports( or for the Germans exports) were drying up. And thus was born as DDR stated " the SV has been the best breed organization in the history of dogs in terms of being a global marketing machine" . At some point in Germany a decison was made to sell not just the dog but the system and more importantly to retain control of that system worlwide. Some attribute this to the Martin brothers because is came to fruition under them. I do not know the history and politics behind this event - I have merely been a spectator to its workings.

What is different? Instead of exporting 1 dog at a time, a venue was created that allowed continous wholesale exportation of dogs. Individuals were encouraged not to show their dogs in their home country venues or FCI shows but to create a whole new structure to show their dogs in ( both show and working and part of this also relates to the absence of schutzhund in the AKC and similar organizations but that' s a whole nother thread)

TGIF, Excellent posts, I go back to personally knowing Stormhavens Dolf and Ken Rayner, Cobert's Melissa, Reno, and the other prominent American dogs of that era.(Mary Roberts and her crew, I had a bitch from Ernie Loeb's import Ywan von Wisenborn,etc) But my point is that many people don't realise that America had some top of the line breeders in the 40s,50s,early60s, that produced dogs that worked at a very high level and were very sound as you so eloquently explained. They were used by police depts, seeing eye foundations, military, etc. So strong shepherd breeding didnot come over on the sch Ark in the past thirty years as many people would have you believe. Now after Lance, Judd, Noah, Waldesruh, and many others, the American show dog started down the road to where it is today. Kennels like Coberts tried to maintain temperament but eventually the almighty angulationgait won out. Thanks for your informative posts!

I also realise that Lance himself was a good dog with impeccable breeding for that time, but what happened afterwards to me is a tragedy.JMO

I get what you are  saying Do Right. I'll agree 1 in 1000 people needs the kind of dogs GARD likes and can handle. I don't recomend breeding them or handing them out like candy unless 1. You know WTF you are doing, 2. Who you are selling to, 3. Can keep or cull like a mad man what you do not sell. Not many have the nash for that. I sure as shit don't. I'll take ole reliable anyday. He might be slower, he might be less aggressive but he should still have enough to get the job done. Part of the job I want done is the bitework. So I'll never agree to no bitework sports.

I do however see the need for such dogs and a place for them. Maybe we don't need them in the GSD breed, maybe if you want that, get a Mal/dutchie/bulldog. I dunno I'm not Max and I'm not God so I can't say. I think even without breeding for those types of dogs, they will always pop up at random anyway.

The important part of this structure is that it was maintained by and for the uses of the SV and German breeders. It would use SV approved judges NOT judges from the home country. They would come and surprise surprise who was put up - why the imports of course because our home growns were not deemed "worthy". So if you wanted to be successful in this arena (and a lot of pople wanted that both on the working and show side) you saw the handwriting on the wall and you imported and you imported and you imported.........

It is only  now after 30 years that there is some small use  of our own judges and very occasionally we are allowed the luxury of an American bred dog being recognized . But despite bowing to the SV god for the last thirty years they still will not accept our breed surveys or working titles. So this is what I call a "client" state. We do not really function as an independent entity and control decisions about what will be successful in OUR country and make decisions has to how we will address the problems the breed has. We merely act as clients of the SV. They pull the strings and collect the money.  They ahve exported this model to almost every country on the face of the earth.

But like all good sine curves - they go up and they come down - that is nature's way to always push back to the middle. And I for one am seeing some signs of that happening. American breeders are once again starting to incorporate some of the german lines.  Some of us poor fools are trying to find the best dogs regardless of wh/ side of the tracts they come from. There are more " half-breeds" - working/show dogs out there than you think.

The third sine curve that plays into this is breed popularity. The breed became very popular in the 50's and with that popularity comes the money and casual breeders and eventually the decline of the breed because of the abuses and bad breeding. I personally think we are approaching one of those popularity peaks. We certainly do have a plethora of money and casual breeders and "pet" breeders and every Tom, Dick and Harry presents themselves as an importer or broker, all made worse by the Internet and the total lack of  ability to critically think or educate themselves by a majority of the population. But if I'm right that just may be a good thing for the breed because when it crashes the only ones left generally are the true stewards of the breed. So Sunsilver a rather long explantion but there you have it.  Would love to hear your thoughts about this point of view.

Gustav

Thank you for your kind words. I think unfortunately we are labeling ourselves as old fogies by the fact we can remember back that far. I always loved the look of Stormhaven's Dolf in that head shot they so often used. But then again I liked a lot of what Bernd produced and always felt the American lines should have preserved more of that and less of Troll and the F litter Arbywood. I agree that for the most part the American lines have tragically gone in the wrong direction but there are still pockets of decent dogs that we  need to preserve. They have always had great bitches and the one working trait that somehow some way they managed to preserve is herding. There are lots of good American herding dogs.

I also love your line above "So strong shepherd breeding did not come over on the sch Ark in the past thirty years as many people would have you believe."  I've been looking for a good way to express that for a very long time. The holier than thou's almost often know nothing of the history of the breed either here or in Germany.

There is  one thing I forgot to add to the posts above. In some ways the situation in the 50s was far better for the breed because it preserved and allowed genetic diversity. With the exportation of the client state model we have reduced GSDs the state of corn these days. In corn worldwide there is one major strain and when a virus mutates to kill it we're all gone 'cause we are so dependent on it. They are trying to cultivate wild varieties as a hedge. We lose genetic diversity in the GSD on a daily  basis and more than fights over working/show/blue/white/black that is what we should be paying attention to. Enuf said I'm sure they are very tired of hearing from me.

No no TIG, not tired of your posts at all. I'm amazed someone with such history is still posting on my thread. These are the stories we need to hear and circulate. I'd love to learn more about the history of the breed but sometimes everything can't come from a book. There is so much I don't know and love new info. Gives me new things to research. It's kind of nice to get an ass chewing from the fogies that really do know it all...LOL Sometimes the younger generation needs a good smack down. It's good to be humbled.

Thanks for taking the time and energy you did in your posts.

Need time, and a fresh day and a clear head to be able to reread and digest this before commenting, Tig, but I certainly agree about the inbreeding, esepecially with the German show lines. There is a formula for calculating the coefficient of inter-relatedness, and I think if this was done on some of the German showlines, it would be very high indeed.  Some American dogs are pretty bad, too, especially since there is no SV to discourage inbreeding.  But, looking at the German high lines, you will see the same dogs over and over 4 or 5 generations back in the pedigree. This is NOT good for the gene pool.

Thank you for the explanation! 

Anyone else have anything to add?

The purpose for breeding is what?????  You talk to ten breeders and you get one general answer, to produce healthy sound dogs to better the breed!!!!  The problem is not in the question  the problem is in the people that you ask.  Breeding dogs is like buying a car, you pick the color, you pick the gears, you pick the looks, you pick the speed and you pick the size you want (SUV, sports car).  As a breeder you need to figure out what kind of GSD you want to produce, high competition, Police, show or even just a couch potato for the average family.  When you figure those issues out you then find dogs with those genetics and traits to breed to.  Hopefully with luck and the stars and the moon aligning up perfectly you achieve your goal.....Can one breeder please all the potential buyers, no.....So is the GSD ruined by having all these different traits, no that is why the GSD is the perfect dog, you can find one that suits your needs.....