They are all the same breed - Page 7

Hi 4pack and Sue, I am here and not trying to be ignorant, lol. While I check in here on the PDB several times a day, I don't always have time for a lengthy thoughtful (hopefully) post due to my busy lifestyle.  My website address is posted under my kennel information and every dog I have ever bred is listed here also (www.vomsilbersee.com). My homepage was dormant for quite a few years but now a great friend of mine could not stand it any longer and took it upon herself to do something about it. Some areas are still under construction, but we are working on it. Especially the "About us" section needs to be carefully considered because I do not want to have a website like the ones you see so often (world class dogs, if you buy from us we can assure you of a VA rating etc. etc. - a bit exaggerated, but I am sure you know what I am trying to say).

I don't believe in extremes, regardless in which direction that goes. There is no need to breed for them because you will find them in many litters. Especially in this country, 95%  or more of all puppies produced will end up in a pet home. These pet homes do need a healthy and stable dog, not an extreme. And anybody who now says that they do not care about pet homes is dead wrong. We all need to think about that. All of our activities with our beloved breed (show, sport etc.) depend on the goodwill of the public (just look at California). We are all stewards of the reputation of our dogs. It makes me sad when people contact me for a puppy or just information in general and they tell me their story about the great GSD they had in their life who had severe hip dysplasia or needed to be on meds or a special diet all his life. This is not the kind of dog I want to own as a  breeding animal or produce. So, a breeder should have three priorities in his program and in that order: Health, temperament and structure!  In my opinion, all breeders and wanna-bes (or in general, everybody who wants to discuss and act as an authority of our GSDs) should familiarize themselves with the breed standard. If you question why we have the sloping back or the angulations and if you oppose it when I have to say that you might want to look for another breed. There are plenty of them out there, do not attempt to change ours or breed for your own fashion. If you question why the dogs of the early years in the breed look so different, please keep in mind that they do not represent the finished product Rittmeister Max von Stephanitz had in mind. He and his group had a vision and they started with some dogs which they thought could take them to their goals. One of my most important mentors, Richard Dexel, told me once never to get lost in details and overlook the whole dog. I have to stop myself every once in a while, but I try to always remember that.  That is why I am open minded regarding any lines, working or show.  I also do not see anything wrong with breeding with a certain trait in mind, as long as it is within the guidelines and borderlines  of our breed standard, and the regulations of the SV. It is a shame that we allowed the drift so far into two different directions and I hope that we will in the future come closer again. That is only possible with the tolerance and acceptance of individual dogs out of all lines. Will you acknowledge the bitework and performance of a good showline on the field and not discourage a club member from trying? Can you cheer for the workingline dog with great structure in the showring and look past the cookie-cutter black and red dogs? Are you willing to take on a puppy from an unknown breeder with the universal idea in mind? A breeder can only do so much and will always need to rely on the owners to prove that his program worked.

Chris

Don't forget that there are breeders who are carefully blending the two lines in their own breeding programs. I know of two who do this and have wonderful dogs who are not extreme. BUT the "not extreme" part also means they are not extreme in conformation or extreme in sport.  Though the goal of excellence in both is there and studied well before breeding. These are the dogs that a top level competetor in either of those fields would not want.  Their dogs do very well in Sch. though they are more suited, IMAO (in my amatuer opinion) to the person who is not interested in world level competition. I know of several who, according to many experienced people, have earned =not just gotten- their Sch III.  I know how people hate the golden middle argument but when there are people who know and they comment on how great of an all around dog these dogs are, or people in Sch who are impressed with them, I think it meets the desires of a very significant portion of owners.  By golden middle I don't mean end up with top level conformation or top level drives. And I don't mean a dog with crappy conformation and/or too much sharpness.  There is that facet who believe and are striving for an excellent blend of the two lines. I think the negativity comes into play when the results are critisized in the first few generations even though it has taken many, many generations for them to diverge.

I'm not saying they all should be blended. Just reminding that there is an alternative to one or the other line. And let's face it, there are a lot of people who really love GSDs and would like a dog that that fits those criteria.

I've changed my views over the past couple of years on this and if asked in 5 years my opinion may very well be different. And I feel the need to forestall all the statements that will come after this post but realize that it will be lumped with others in the past who may not have the same detailed view as I do; but may have the same generalities. I hope not.

JMHO.

I think it boils down to this:

Is the GSD still a breed in development? And in comparison to other breeds, how long does it take to declare a breed "stable" and uniform? Is 100 yrs too early? And how much progress has been undone by the casual profit driven breeder?

At the end of it, the more people you have pissing into the pot, the less likely you are to get a concensus on the proper "flavor" of the stew, meaning, there are too many people breeding to their own interpretation of the standard to ever have one uniform type of GSD, but God Bless those that give it an honest try.

If the stud books were to be opened to adding other breeds, I'd be partial to Beaucerons, Dobes, Border Collies, some Malinois and Tervurens, if looks were going to take precident over bidability, then stick to the Beauc and Tervurens.

Thank you for the history TIG - this is one of the most educational threads in this messageboard ever. I'd also like to remind people that the U.S. military used about 3,000 GSDs during the Vietnam War in the 60s and the vast majority of these dogs were not imports but were from American breeders. Same in World War 2. Can you imagine if the military today went around American homes looking for 3,000 working dogs from American lines? How many, would they find, 30? LOL

"Thank you for the history TIG - this is one of the most educational threads in this messageboard ever." (DDRShep)

I agree 100%.  I would also like to give everyone a hand for remaining civil about this very hot topic on this board.  We need to do more of this.

There are two more simultaneous threads going on that deal with this subject - Opening the Stud Book and Out-crossing GSD's with other breeds. May I recommend a read. Equally good but slightly different and just as interesting posts.

All three threads are so good and some of the best discussion I have ever seen on this board and discussion w/o the flamers. Is there anyway Oli can save them as a combined permanent article? It would be a shame to see them fade away and lost and I know I for one am not up to repeating my posts for quite some time.

I would like to commend 4pack for starting this thread and for all that have kept it civilized while retaining their passion for their point of view. See we can learn to play nicely together. Dees Wolf, TIG, DDR, Silbersee, Allabout dawgs great posts. I think perhaps we need to create a small yahoo group of like minded people so when we see a local dog that will never be promoted nationally but have what we are all looking for we can let each other know.

I would like to comment on Don C's statement "  The biggest problem is in the general public.  These are the majority stock owners in the breed.  They outnumber all show and working homes combined.  They are the most uneducated group out there.  Most of them think that a GSD only comes in Blk and tan.  They have no idea what the ideal temperment of a "real" Gsd should be.  So let these people go to the local show and look at all the pretty GSD's with no drive and their asses dragging on the astro-turf, because I would hate to see them get a "real" GSD.  It would probably end up in the pound. "

This attitude is just as much a problem as volume/money/pet breeders.   The reality is they are the majority stock owners and we as the board of directors have an obligation to educate them. How many of you have ever competed in an AKC show in EITHER breed or obedience. That is where John Q Public is and that's how you reach him. To know what a correct GSD is he HAS to be able to see it. I don't care whether you win or not that's not the purpose of the exercise but you know you are also educating the judges when you show and giving them an option of thinking differently. How many of you go to schools or county fairs or parades or whatever and do demonstration of your dog's working ability and have a discussion about responsible dog ownership and training. There is no magic wand here same as in breeding. We have to WORK at it not just sit back and blame.  By the way AKC has a great program where they give you free materials on responsible dog ownership - will even put the local politicians name on it- so that you can go into the schools and educate the little ones. That is where the next generation comes from and let me tell you HSUS and PETA have aggressive programs targeting these kids. So this is how we fight Animal Rights, create a better living environment for all pets and educate people about our beloved breed but it means getting up off our fat ---- and as Nike says - Do it!

Dee's Wolf has it right  "it is great that there are people that want stable family pets. Without those people, a lot of us who breed would be left holding the leashes of the dogs...."  There are only 5 people who go to the worlds each year and maybe 2 dozen who will have the money, time and dog to get a VA -that leads a lot of responsible homes to find. PLEASE NOTE I am NOT advocating just breeding for pets - that is an abomination but life is all about the bell curve. You breed for the best in terms of health and temperament and character and breed specific abilities and hopefully get that but chances are you are also going to get some that don't meet that bar in some small way. They need responsible homes that understand their drives and training needs and will help them find the best use of their talents. This does not happen in a vaccum.

Great posts all! 

TIG, fantasic recap and explanation. Bravo!

Regards,

Bob-O