Who objects to this dog being bred? - Page 11

Well  Obviously while I was putting Thought and effort into my Post.   

Yet another Really good thread has been High Jacked !!  

Really Sad !!    

Jamille, this dog does not have a KKL rating and I still don't know if he is eligible for one, so is he or isn't he? Does the SV say or does it not say that a dog needs to have a KKL in order to be considered fit for breeding? If so, then why is it OK to use a dog that does not have a KKL rating? If a dog without a KKL is bred, the progeny will get white papers instead of the coveted pink ones. In the big picture, a KKL is really not a huge deal since if  progeny with white papers are eligible for and receive a KKL rating and are bred to another KKL then their progeny will be eligible for a KKL and pink papers anyway. So, what's the reason for a Koerklasse in the first place?

Yeah, I'm confused and yeah, I participated in some frivilous posts here tonight, so shoot me. I'm not here to offend you or anyone else, just trying to get the picture so I don't misinform anyone else as I obviously have in the past. If it's OK to use dogs that have breed surveys and not KKL's, then that's the way it is and it makes life easier for everyone who is breeding GSD's.  I really don't understand your last sentence either.

"Secondly,   the people that just breed to breed and don't give a thought to titles or surveys or working there dogs, or EVEN learning more about this breed.    AREN'T ON THIS BOARD !"

If only that were true.  It seems as if almost everyday people are on here defending their right to breed petstock to petstock.

NO one has said this is not a wonderful dog.  Some do not wish to breed to him because he is not breed surveyed.  You say that he is breed surveyed - do you know where we can read his koer report? 

I really don't understand the controversy.  Who ever said everybody must want to breed their dog to every other dog?  Are people not allowed to choose one over another without it being such a huge deal?  Perhaps it would be better if in the future someone asks "do you think this dog should be bred" everyone should just state yes or no but not dare to express an opinion. 

8 people expressed an opinion different from someone elses, oh the shame the horror.  Do you think the shock waves were felt around the world?

  Blitzen  ,    LOL !! 

Yeah,  my post was cut in half.   So here was the rest of it.      hopefully it will get it all.  : )

DISCLAIMER ----     THE FOLLOWING ARE MY BELIEFS,  NOTHING I SAY IS DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR !! 

Also, As far as dogs being bred without titles here goes:

There are good dogs in this country, that came from the Old Stock back in Rinty's time, and later. But , being that there weren't the established training , and breed survey systems here. These Old lines don't have current titles. And through the Years there has been fresh German blood put in. And some of the " ORIGINAL BREEDERS " in this country did there own form of line breeding and crossing back and forth to German and or American lines. Because like we all know back in the 60's and 70's there were some outstanding dogs being bred both here and Germany. Now , just because these dogs didn't have titles , didn't mean that they didn't work,

In Fact, if you go to Research back on WAR Dogs, and the thousands that got killed after the war.

WHERE IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK ALL OF THOSE " AMERICAN WAR DOGS " CAME FROM?

we didn't ship them all directly from Germany , just to send them to OUR WAR.

Those dogs were bred here and trained here in America !! And actually in the first war, alot of dogs went back to the origial owners. ( TALK ABOUT OUTSTANDING DOGS!) the second war was a sin , how they killed them or gave them to the enemy(at the time) . This Country lost Soooo Many valuable assests to the GSD as far as being able to keep the standard strong. If I am correct I think it was something like 4,000 dogs didn't get to come home.

My point is that so many are forgetting that there are still tons of German shepherds here that do not have titles or surveys. But these dogs have a "HELL OF A LOT TO OFFER" !!!

And if you REALLY want to take a "HUGE OPEN MINDED " look at the situation. These GERMAN Line American bred dogs are exactly what needs to be infused back in. TITLES OR NOT! Then once you get the offspring start doing titles again.

This is my belief that , there are good dogs here that do not have titles in several generations but still posses the abiltiy to not only do sport or the one time breed survey, but also have the ability to produce Quality GSD's .

Do People realize that Germany is the roughly the size of Texas ??? And Because German shepherds have been part of their culture for over 100 years, there is a club in every town or more.
Being that we have 50 states , it does make it more CHALLENGING to get to a local or good club!! I only drive 1hour and 10 minutes, but I know that is not very long compared to most. I bet a person in Germany can have a job and very easily go train their dog after work. Here, you almost CAN'T have a job, to do it right and title all of your dogs. Now, I am dedicated, to as many weekends as I can, until the electricity has to be paid, or the mortgage.

I am not meaning to rant, but some of you " RELIGIOUS " rule followers , need to walk in other shoes, before you keep preaching the same old Rules ! Rules ! Rules !

Good Breeders are capable of having the ability to know a good dog regardless of a title yet or ever. !! And a good Breeder will have the INTEGRITY , to do what is right for the GSD's that they are trying to produce.

AMEN ! ! ! ! !

I will quit for now. : )

Jamille, I get all of that, honestly I do. I just don't understand the intent of the koerklass, but that's on me, not you. Good night.

"And if you REALLY want to take a "HUGE OPEN MINDED " look at the situation. These GERMAN Line American bred dogs are exactly what needs to be infused back in. TITLES OR NOT! Then once you get the offspring start doing titles again."

Specifically which American dogs are you referring to and what is it that is being done with them that proves they have working ability?

Good post Jamille, but you are right it is a stretch between clubs.  Idrive almost 2hrs one way.

Gustav-  I had to touch on this paragraph you wrote :

"There are so many dogs/pups bought from Germany/Czech republic in which the people haven't seen the dog, couldn't tell you anything about grandparents or greatgrandparents, and don't know anything about the history of the Kennel other than its a name of something famous. Now, I ask you what are these people basing their purchase on???? Seen it time and time again! I go up to the people and ask them about the dogs lines and they barely can tell me the name of both parents much less the strengths /weaknesses of the line. Often times they tell me proudly that both or one of the parents are SCH 3 , the highest working degree you can get in Germany. Then when the dog gets on the field they are perplexed when the dog is so marginal in working. I've seen it too many times, so what did these people make their decision on in purchasing the dog in the first place. And guess what; they will breed that dog also!!!! Does this sound familar to any people on this board?"

Just recently someone I know from this board inquired about a dog advertised in the classified on the PDB, asked me what I thought of the dog, I said "looks nice, how about a video or some more info (dog was SVVI)"  he says owner just got the bitch she's due any day and she doesn't have any video.  Pedigree was decent, price was a bit over the top IMO and when asked what language the dogs commands were in the BREEDER said "oh I couldn't even tell you, I bought her to breed".

OMG!  But she was "titled" so what the hell she's gotta be worth the price tag and I'm sure she's gonna have all podium pups..... so not only does what you commented on happen often, it happens more often than folks think and by people you'd probably never suspect either.  I guess sometimes you can preach to the choir.

Jamille, I just don't get where you are seeing he is G rated?  The information I found says he is not qualified.

I repeat:

http://www.donnerbruecke.de/zucht/Deckpartner/kalleW.htm

Körbericht: nicht gekört

Regardless, this conversation is getting old and those who want to breed to a coated dog are going to breed to a coated dog.  Those who want to do "experimental" breedings will do just that and nobody will talk them out of it.

I see nothing wrong with people who prefer the coats and want to have them proudly walking down the street with them or competing on the field.   They are just as good at being a working dog or pet dog as a standard coat.  Heck people are putting schutzhund titles on mixed breeds just for the fun of the sport.  I watched a shy, unsure of herself, American bred dog at our club become a confident, prey driven, crazy for the bite, working dog.  Her owners spayed her when her heats became a pain in the neck.  They didn't suddenly decide that she needed to be bred because they could get a BH and possible Sch.1 title on her.

Just because a dog does well at the BSP, I am not going to run out and want to breed to that dog if he has a serious fault and to me a coat is a serious fault.  I can have coats that people will love just as much if I bred to a standard coated dog so why push it and have a possibly have a whole litter of them?

Agar, I just try to deal in reality and not what people want to believe. There are people with titled and untitled dogs that do not need to be breeding....PERIOD! I just get tired of the elitist constantly pointing to untitled breeders as F------g this breed up. It is unknowledgable breeders or money gluttons that messed this breed up. I just try to bring balance to the conversation!!! BECAUSE until you can show me how untitled breeders put the German Showline dog in the collective shape it is today(and they are SCh3, KK1), the people who produced this dog and continue to produce this dog have little preaching credibility with me. And guess what, they don't have any credibility with you working people that's why you won't breed to their dogs!! So, all I ask that you have balance in pointing out what is lowering the standards of this breed. Why,? because all the reasons contribute and its people hiding behind some of this mess that allows the slippage in work quality to continue. (And I know that some showline dogs can work and represent the breed, but performance in all working venues shows this is not the norm!! And everybody doesn't have VA dogs that show all their life, no most have these trophy dogs that cant do seeing eye work or police work and are marginal at sch play.) So to arbitrarily eliminate this dog from breeding because of his coat is like me eliminating from breeding dogs that are black and red because of what I see. Folks, people, organizations and governments need balance and correcting sometimes!!