Who objects to this dog being bred?

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 04 December 2007 - 13:12

Gustav- Once again, very well said. No arguments here.

by sueincc on 04 December 2007 - 14:12

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, Gustav. I don't think the GSD is F'ed up, except of course, the American lines, which I believe became F'ed up because they are not bred to do anything at all but run around a small ring in one direction. There are exceptions, but they are the pitiful few.

by Hundguy on 04 December 2007 - 15:12

Tracy, ZB: G is the show card.

by D.H. on 04 December 2007 - 19:12

Blitzen, unfortunately F. Lanting is sometimes very 'liberal' with his translations and loses the accurate content of the original message. Translation of point 4.1.1 of the SV Breeding Rules do NOT say "Dogs admitted to the gene pool". German original: Zur Zucht zugelassene Hunde, which translates into: Dogs elligible for breeding. I can find no dictionary that translates the word Zucht (breeding) with gene pool, which obviously mean very different things. Mind your sources, even some that appear very reliable. During a breed survey breeders get a chance to see all the dogs in their region destined for breeding up close in a single event. People did not used to be as mobile as they are today. Cars were small, gas expensive, and there was usually only one car per household and not every family member was into doing doggy stuff every weekend. So you would choose your events wisely. There was no internet and instant cameras to send info back and forth in a flash. It was, and still is, important to go out and see the breeding stock in person to help you plan your breedings. Many years ago there were little options to see them otherwise, except with great effort. The local events are too small to give much insight. The KKL shows off a lot of young and up and coming dogs. It gives a glimps into the future. It also gives a dog an opportunity to shine and get a favorable report, especially if local competition is very stiff that year and a new dog may have a hard time going up against established dogs. A convincing KKL performance can put a young dog on the map. Dogs come from all over the region and dogs one had never even considered before may catch the breeders eye, or draw attention because of a strong performance. It also gives breeders an opportunity to see the dogs work, which regular shows will not. It was the biggest advertising source breeders used to have back when and still gives breeders a chance to show off their best dogs, the results of their breeding efforts. Someone wanting to become a judge needs to have produced a certain amount of KKL'd dogs before being considered for an apprenticeship. The KKL is necessary for show people who aim for a VA with their dog. Nowadays KKL'd dogs can get preference over not KKL'd dogs when a region sends dogs to the BSP, that is at the discretion of each LG, but it may decide if you and your dog get to go or not. In a strong region like the one Kalle is in, for them to send him they must have thought quite a lot of him. SV events also do not issue a written show or trial critique. A KKL can provide a useful tool because it gives you a thorough written report of your dog, or the dog you want to use for breeding. So its nice to have, and there are a lot of reason for doing it, but it is not required.

by D.H. on 04 December 2007 - 19:12

MI GSD - The unfortunate basis or nature of many of these kinds of discussions on this board becomes very clear in much of this thread. People discuss issues and voice very, VERY strong opinions about SV rules. Without the VERY BASIC knowledge of such SV Rules. It sometimes feels like watching an American trying to tell a Brit that the Brit is driving on the wrong side of the road, in Britain... I, and several other people, have stated numerous times above that according to SV rules this male IS in fact elligible for breeding. Yet the debate continues around that issue. A dog with a disqualifying fault will not get a passing show rating, period. Therefore a truly long coated dog will not get a passing show rating. This dog did get his passing show rating. A few fringes around the ears, if they were there as a young dog (when he most likely got his rating) and if they are there in the summer (show season) at all, do not determine if a dog is coat or not. It is the discretion of the judge to say - yes that is acceptable in the opinion of this judge, or - no this is not acceptable in the opinion of this judge. The judge who evaluated this dog said everything was ok, awarded the G. G is a passing grade and it is thereby confirmed that the coat of that dog is acceptable and within standard, and it is not up to anyone else to say it is not so. And just because the dog does not have the KKL also does not mean he is not elligible for breeding. The dog IS elligible for breeding. His offspring is therefore elligible for proper SV registration without any restrictions. Absolutely nothing wrong with the dog or using him for breeding. The rest is personal choice. Breeding rules and breed survey rules are two different issues. This is where some of the confusion comes from. A dog is elligible for the breed survey once he has a passing show rating, AD, a-stamp, DNA (for dogs born after 1999) and a working title (in SchH or IP at least 80 in protection). So this male has everything he needs to enter a breed survey, providing the owner wants to do that. The owner may simply not want to, as he does not need to. The KKL is OPTIONAL. I know several people who love the breed or the sport and hate the SV and not KKL their dogs, just because. Bottom line is, despite popular opinion on this board, a KKL is not needed for breeding under SV rules. The SV Breeding Reules very clearly differentiate between:

elligible for breeding (no KKL but dog has everything in place he needs for breeding, ie show rating, a-stamp, working title, DNA)
suitable for breeding (KKL2) and
recommended for breeding (KKL1).

The USA rules are not exactly the same as the SVs but close. (http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breeding_regulations.htm). Pink papers are a marketing tool, and a source of pride for the owner, very little else. A GSD is fine with "just" white papers, unless you plan to VA the dog. That is not the basis of the breeding choice for using this particular male. Therefore not an important factor here.

by sueincc on 04 December 2007 - 20:12

My confusion is with the following part of the UScA Breed Survey Regulations : http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_survey_regulations.htm

7.5 Not Suitable for Survey

7.5.6 Long Coat or Long Stock Coat

I guess it doesn't really matter except it was my understanding UScA wants to keep the same rules as the SV.

by D.H. on 04 December 2007 - 20:12

Yes, sueincc, but it has already been established that an SV official does not classify this dog as a coat.

by 4pack on 04 December 2007 - 21:12

Sue in other words, if you slip the judge a few Bens, your dog can be short coat, long coat or anything inbetween.

by peter johnson on 04 December 2007 - 21:12

why not get the dog a haircut regularly? would that not work? some classify me as an ass, others do not.

by Silbersee on 04 December 2007 - 21:12

Hey Sue,

what D.H. is trying to say is that this dog was not classified as a long stockcoat by his breeder on the litter application. Sometimes, it is hard to evaluate at 8 weeks as some are borderline and also, if a breeder does designate a puppy as a long stockcat, the SV will automatically issue a breed book ban and publish that in SID. No breeder likes to see his name mentioned there. Since this dog was not designated a LSC on paper, he was shown and one judge gave him a G-rating. Every dog person can second guess why this dog was never breed surveyed. Enough said!

Regardless, since he fulfilled the minimum requirements for breeding, he was offered at stud and a couple of breeders (5?) went to him. They received white papers for the resulting litters, which is called a performance bred litter. Pink papers would be issued for puppies out of titled and surveyed parents. These breedings are called survey and performance breedings. Almost all litters in Germany nowadays would receive pink papers.

When you look at the SV breeding regulations, you will find the following definitions under paragraphs:

4.1.1. Dogs permitted for breeding (all dogs that have fullfilled the requirements for breeding such as this dog: at least SchH1 or HGH under an SV judge (minimum of 80 points in C), show rating of at least G, hip and elbow certification and DNA

4.1.2. Dogs suitable for breeding (all dogs with the requirements and surveyed in class 2 (KKL2))

4.1.3. Dogs recommended for breeding (all dogs with the requirements and surveyed in class 1 (KKL1))

4.1.4. Dogs not permitted for breeding (all dogs not meeting the requirements, dogs registered in the working register (similar to the ILP of AKC?) and dogs with faults, among them listed the long stockcoat.

It is true what D.H. already said: Fred Lanting's translations are not always accurate. I have noticed that too.

Chris

Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top

Who objects to this dog being bred? - Page 12

Pedigree Database