showing long coat female - Page 4

VKFGSD, Thank you for the historical perspective of the long coated GSD as it pertained to conformation shows. I am a big fan of long coated, large sized GSD's and I think it's unfair to ostracize them for their differences, which are primarily a matter of personal preference. As an owner of two large, long coated GSD's I get comments, questions, and compliments from stangers all of the time. And many of them are former owners of standard GSD's who find the differences quite appealing. And the ones who don't own GSD's tell me they much prefer the larger, long coated version over the standard ones they have seen a million times over. Before I owned my two long haired GSD's I had a very large, smooth coat GSD who was also impressive looking because of his black face, black saddle, and tan/red highlights. I, like you feel that the focus needs to be on genetic anomalies versus cosmetic differences. Along with that I would add that there is a need for more attention to behavioral/temperment issues over pure aesthetics. Many of the breeders, handlers, trainers, judges, critics, etc... on these mesage boards could learn a great deal from people like Cesar Millan who understands that dogs have specific needs in order to be balanced. These needs come ahead of shows, trials, and owners' egos. They include excercise, discipline, and affection. Unfortunately, there are otherwise "enlightened" dog people who ignore these principles and they do their companions a disservice despite their knowledge and experience in the ring or the field. They are no different than the pushy, out-of-control stage mothers who push their kids to win beauty or talent contests. We pity these stereotyped parents when it involves their own children, but tend to accept this same behavior from equally unbalanced breeders, handlers, trainers, etc... because they appear to have "specialized" knowlege about dogs. Right. And I have the Guttenberg Bible in the glove box of my car. I am leary of many of the so called experts in the dog world and I have learned more from Cesar Millan than all of the trainers, handlers, breeders, and specialists put together. And I saved a lot of money in the process. Watch out for the experts, many of them are just sheep in GSD clothing. MaxVonPotteram

Geesh, can't even quote somebody without them twisting their own words...... I guess I should have said: To quote SW in her reply to Cindy: begin quote "First of all, you cannot "cut" a GSD's hair for showing. You will be disqualified immediately when they find out! When I show my long coat male, I do take him to a groomer though before the show. She plucks his ear hairs, and uses a kind of rake comb on his chest etc. to "thin" the hair down some. But as I said, you cannot cut it! She also trims up his pads etc. on his feet." end quote My reply to SW's quote: Sounds like cutting the hair to me. Plucking long hairs from the ears, "thinning" chest hair, and trimming hair on the pads all sound like cutting hair. Whatever.

My apologies animules. The heat of the moment, LOL : - } To respond to your reply though. Allot of groomers pluck the hair out of the ears of a lot of breeds, and they also shave the pads of their feet to get rid of the access hair. At least the groomer I use to work for did, on all of the dogs that she groomed!

Well, when many terrier breeds are "hand-stripped" (with a SHARP rake or stripping blade), you can bet that all of their hair shafts do not remain intact. Big deal--so you're tearing/breaking the hairs instead of blunt-cutting it with scissors. Run your hand over one of these rakes. They will cut your skin. The bottom line is that you are cosmetically altering the appearance of dog to have him pass for something that he isn't. In my book, this is deception and CHEATING! Yes, I did it to my dog. This was cheating and was wrong, IMO. I'm sorry/ashamed and I apologize. In the 90's, the esteemed Walter Martin was judging a NASS in the South East (South Carolina?). He awarded a first place to a "trimmed/groomed/thinned" LC male pup belonging to a well-known California breeder. Everyone present knew that the dog was a coat. When the same dog was shown as a young adult under an SV judge in Southern California, the judge recognized that dog was a trimmed LC--despite the owner's protestations. He gave the owner two choices: be excused from the ring or go to the end of the line. I believe that the dog later was sold and became a LE dog--an honorable career. Until the breed standard changes--as well as the requirements for a breed survey, showing and passing a dog off for something he isn't is CHEATING! A few months back, a breeder from Utah (Vickie Garrett-- http://www.majicforest.com/puppies.htm ) approached me about breeding to one of my males. After checking out the website, I was appalled to see that she had bred to a littermate to my male. Anyhow, I called the breeder (also from Utah) of my male. She warned that the woman was only trying to capitalize on her respected kennel name. Now, the woman plans to breed to a local LC stud. I also learned that, not only does the woman breed coats, one of her females reportedly has EPI. Yes, I'm retired on a fixed income and could have used an extra stud fee or two. However, I felt that allowing coats to be bred to either of my studs would have be a slap in the face to those bitch owners who come to me for stud services with their normal coated, titled (for the most part), x-rayed (clear hips/elbows) females. YOU HAVE TO STAND FOR SOMETHING!! Otherwise, you're a fake....

Shepherd Woman "I have NEVER been told that I HAVE to put AKC, UKC or any other thing in front of his CH.! So I will not!" Well now you have been told. If you will speak to anyone who shows dogs in the US they will confirm for you the convention is exactly as VKF outlined it above. A simple title of CH. in front of the dog's name implies that it is an AKC title primarily because AKC is the primary and FCI acknowledged tho not FCI member registry in this country. Did you stamp your foot when you said the I will not - it certainly came across as being a bit petulant. I think VKF is right if you are proud of his accomplishments in UKC wh/ is the only place he can be shown in breed then have the honesty of correctly indicating his title as being from there. Max I agree with much of what you have to say but need to point out that large and LC do not go together the same as large and GSD do not go together. The historical and correct GSD is a medium size breed NOT a large or giant breed. Height limits are 22 to 24 inches for bitches and 24 - 26 for males. Historical weights were 45 to 65 lbs for bitches and 65 -85 libs for males (in the standard until 1968). America has the problem of thinking that bigger is always better and in this case they are wrong. You lose agility and workability as bulk and height increases. In addition there is the problem of putting 95 or gad forbid over 100 lbs on a frame designed for a lot less weight - is there a wonder we get orthopedic problems? You will find the working lines to be much more medium size and gee golly gee tend to have much lower ZW numbers - I think it just might be related. I had a very correct 22 inch bitch and can not tell you the number of times I was asked where I got the minature shepherd from. Her son was a very correct 25in weighed 73 -75 pounds - was very athletic, strong and agile and also very impressive to look at. Most of your working police dogs tend to be that kind of size because of the agility needs and also if the handler has to lift them thru a window or into a helicopter etc it's a heck of a lot easier than boosting one that's a third again larger.

A breed standard is primarily based on 2 factors -1) how that dog needs to look and behave in order to do the job for which it is intended and 2) to set it apart from other similar breeds -, primarily cosmetic features like ear set and carriage, eye color and other issues that do not have anything to do with how the dog performs while working. This has been argued to death on this forum and some feel that a dog with a long, soft coat could survive a Germany winter. They could not without human intervention for multiple reasons that I won't get into AGAIN. Suffice to say you will NEVER see an dog with a long, soft coat working on a sled team or running in the Iditarod or doing any other type of work out of doors during a cold, wet winter unless they are provided with warm quarters, a blow dryer, and all the ice balls are trimmed from their coat and feet every few hours. A dog with a long, soft coat would never survive on their own and that's what survival is all about. A long soft coat is NOT a survival characteristic period. No herding/tending breed calls for long, soft coats and they are faulted in all. Collie, shelties, etc all must have a deep oily undercoat and harsh guardhairs taht stand off from the body. Personal opinions have nada to do with any of this. It doesn't matter if you like coats better than stockhairs or 100 lb dogs better than 75 lbs dogs. It is not about personal likes and dislikes. It'a about following the breed standard and the rules set down by the SV. Some here act as if the breed standard was written in haste by a bunch of morons who did know what they were talking about. Think again. So there are 2 choices for GSD breeders - either breed to the standard, SV, AKC, or UKC, or don't. Show coats if you want, I really could care less, just don't trim them. Breeding them? Not for me, do as you wish. Anyone who has been showing dogs for any length of time knows that UKC shows are on the same par with an AKC fun match. I have never heard of one dog that did not eventually get a UKC championship although many of those same dogs have never earned one single point at an AKC show due to their having serious and in some cases, disqualifyig faults. A UKC title is really not a big deal. It's a way to enjoy your dog without the pressure of competing against pro handlers. If I had a dog to show I might enter some UKC shows myself, but I'd be very careful about making more out of a win than it really is. I wouldn't come on this board and brag on an AKC win, let alone a UKC one. My momma didn't raise no fool.

Meant to say - written in haste by a bunch of morons who did NOT know what they were talking about. I'd give 5 years of my life for an edit feature on this board.

I still have an issue with the usefulness of the short coat. Malamutes have long and short haired version and both are acceptable. Now I think a Malamute has to handle the weather more. After all as cold as places like Germany get I don't think they have the extremes and amount of snow that Alaska gets. Plus many Malamutes frequently spend the night in the snow. My opinion ( worth nothing really ) is that the Long Stock Coat GSD ( especially if the bulk of the fur on the back is coarse ) will stand up just as well if not better than the short coat with an under coat. The whole DQ on a Long Stock Coat just seems like an arbitrary useless standard. As far a grooming one to look like a short hair for a show that doesn't allow LC that is a case of people not believing in the rule so why not break it. Tempting but better to change the system and not the dog. Much more work though.

It is my understanding long haired malamutes and long haired siberians are known as "woolies" and are not desirable in the breed. Most likely for reasons similar to those outlined above by Blitzen. I'm hoping she will weigh in on this as Malamutes were her breed for a long time. Of course, you probably have the fringe element breeding dogs that do not conform to the standard in Mals as well. Those who breed for oversized, coated dogs or unique colors, those who think the standards do not apply to them.

I think VKFGSD made some good points about the overstandardization of the GSD for profitability and the elimination of suitable dogs due to "looks". Now we have folks breeding longcoats for "the looks" and that is even worse. I would not personally want a longcoat. I really have seen some of them come out of the woods a tangle of briars and dirt - perhaps a coarse longcoat would not have this problem. The shorter coat seems more protective and self cleaning. I know, however, many of the hunting spaniels have long soft coats.