Mating age? - Page 3

Hello -- people we are talking about a male here, not a bitch that will potentially be a lousy mother because she is too young !! While I respect and value ALL of the SV tradition, IF FMJ is in the US he doesn't need to be too concerned about SV rules and regs unless he chooses to follow that handbook ! I have bred young males around 16-18 months WITH PRELIMINARY HIP STATUS (and ELBOWS) and had no problems whatsoever. Some people, apparently nobody on the site today, are of the opinion that if you DO NOT get a male the experience of breeding while he is young, he may not be interested later! I know plenty of people who have used males under 2 years of age -- bitches on the other hand need to be MATURE - mentally and physically - so that may be 18 months or later -- Some people are firm -- not before the 3rd season -- others will jump at the chance on the second - Personally, I would like the female to be as close to 24 months as possible. A friend had an "accidental" litter with her brother where the mother was only about 13 months when she whelped !! So the male was under one year when he successfully bred his sister with no assistance whatsoever !! (she came in very young) and she whelped with no assistance, and did not lose one of 7 puppies -- She was an excellent mother -- EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT - EVERY SITUATION INDIVIDUAL. Some males are adults at 2 years old - some are goodballs at 3 -- I know an exquisite male who will not breed a bitch no matter what -- he is in love with his FEMALE owner - and will not cheat on her !!

To Vom Insel - I am intrigued by your question about the linebreeding - I think I have seen it before ? Was the the question about Kevin M. ? I think everyone agrees he is an excellent producer ! Some thinking is that beyond the third generation the gene pool is sufficiently weakend that it doesn't matter very much . Yet, I can look at my young male and see his great grandfather -- (maybe it's my wild imagination. A wise old soul counsels -- breed type to type -- and the rest will happen. You cannot mix apples and oranges and get grapes. I have seen very "open pedigrees" (but two dogs of the same "type" produce excellent "COOKIE-CUTTER" PUPPIES -- and you wonder how ? with no linebreeding !! Their phenotype is the same. I am the biggest pedigree snob I know - yet I know better - There is more to a dog than his papers -- I have been shocked when I saw a pedigree first and though "oh how wonderful" and then saw the actual dog and said -- gee, I wasn't picturing a goat !! Close(er) linebreeding can be wonderful - as long as you know what your doubling up on !!! I think the 4 and 5 generations are important - because, after all, they are the dog's heritage, but 3 or 4 times URAN or JANGO or does not get you another one. TRUST YOUR OWN HEAD - you seem to have some lovely SMART dogs already !!

THANK YOU AND WELL SAID VOMINSEL! I ONLY WISH THERE WERE MORE INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU IN THE WORLD AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE DOGS BEING PUT DOWN AND IN THE HUMANE SOCIETY OR FREAKS FOR GSDS - THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR! I BELIEVE IN STANDARDS! SORRY BUT HAD TO SPEAK MY MIND. BUT BREEDING WHEN A DOG IS THAT YOUNG IS DANGEROUS TO THE DOG, OWNER, AND THE PUPPIES - AND THE NEW OWNERS OF THE PUPPIES!

You can follow the standard set by the SV which requires the dog to be titled and x-rayed prior to being used at stud or go the AKC route which is nothing. Even the OFA does not give an evaluation on hips & elbows before 24 months. Why are you in such a hurry to breed this young male before he has a title and certified hips? There are enough back yard breeders. ( even one BYB is more than we need)

Back yard breeders would not even be asking these questions !! You do not need a title to have viable sperm !!! Not everybody is into sport work. My male's parents are heavily titled (V) rated dogs. But my dog will probably get a CD, a HIC, and a TDI, as he has the temperatment for therapy work as well as the ability to bite, scale steep inclines, and heard sheep. If your bitch comes next month, and your male is 18 months - (and you know his hip status - even if preliminary) why would you need to wait !! I'm not going to say oh, no he's too young -- wait another 6 months -- then the bitch doesn't have a normal cycle or something else happens - and your opportunity is gone. I'm questioning people who have bred much longer than the 15 years I have, and nobody seems to have a problem with using males under 2 years of age!! I would more strenuously object to breeding a bitch at 9 years - which some people think is fine too !! And if under two is too young, then do you have a problem with a 10 year old male breeding ?? Hey, if he can get up on his rear and do the deed -- God Bless Him !!

Some people (even breeders you might all know and revere for what they produce) will use a young male (14-20mos old that has had hips and elbows prelim'd via OFA, 'a' stamped via SV, or certified via OVC) to see how he produces. If the dog doesn't produce well, then they sell him to someone else (either for a sport dog, a show dog, a police dog, or as a pet). If he does produce well in the test litter, then they continue to put the time and effort into getting his titles/certifications/proof of working ability then get his official certifications on hips/elbows/health (if not already done through the SV system or OVC). Everyone talks bad about it, but it is more common to breed a young, up-n-coming male than they will admit. Do I agree with it, yes and no. Would I do it, I don't see why when I can "rent" an older proven male, but I don't put down those that have done this (some of them have produced some outstanding dogs using these methods).

Makosh wrote: Igor, I know a breeder who have bred his male at 18 month of age, and I have heard him swearing that he will NEVER EVER do it again because he has ruined his dog. I am not sure what exactly happend to his dog, but as I understand thomthing went wrong with him physically or psychologically. That is without speaking of SV requirements. What specifically happended that the dog is ruined? Call you friend please and post what happened. I have also heard of people that have bred dogs younger than two for a test litter for a window into the future of what they might produce without any problems. It's not publicized but it does happen.

...."No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, will be registered unless the application for registration shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The American Kennel Club." From AKC.... Chapter 9: Overage/Underage Sires and Dams here is the link to read the exact spot I found this: http://akc.org/registration/policies/index.cfm?page=10 From Procedures for Registration Matters: http://akc.org/registration/policies/index.cfm From AKC RULES AND REGULATIONS http://akc.org/insideAKC/regs.cfm From AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB: http://akc.org/

Jman, unfortunately I have no way to contact that person. I am interested myself to know what happened. The breeder was so convinsed that the harm was done to his male that he refused to breed his other younger male for a good ammount of money before he is two years old. I was just a witness, and don't know details. What do they do with those puppies that are "a window into the future"? Sounds very wierd to me. I know some people breed younger dogs because they can't wait to get their money for the puppies.

IF U DO PRELIMS ON HIPS AND ELBOWS, IF YOUR DOG IS MENTALLY WELL, GOOD TEMPERMENT, OBEYS AND IS TAUGHT OBEDIENCE IN SOME MANNER, USE HIM AT 15 MONTHS OF AGE. IN THE U.S. A TITLE IS NOT SO IMPORTANT, IT IS THE SV RULE TO TITLE AND NOT USE A DOG BEFORE TWO YEARS. I KNOW MY GERMAN FRIEND HATES THE SV RULES AT TIMES, THEY DO HIPS AT ONE YEAR SO THEY CAN TRAIN ON THEM AT 18 MONTHS TO TITLE FOR TWO YEARS TO HURRY AND BREED ALSO. SOME DOGS CAN MENTALLY TAKE THE RUSH, SOME BLOW THEIR MINDS. THE FEMALE ON THE OTHER HAND MAY NOT BE MENTALLY READY TO BE A MOTHER SO YOUNG? MY GERMAN FRIEND CAME TO U.S IN MY HOME AND LOVED TO SEE THE DOGS LOOSE PLAYING, OVER THERE SHE SAID, ONE DOG A TIME IS OUT TO WORK AND BACK IN THE KENNELS. IT IS ALL BUSINESS IN GERMANY, WE HAVE THE LUXURY TO USE OUR DOGS HERE, MOST PEOPLE THAT WANT PETS NEVER KNOW EXACTLY WHAT A TITLE IS OR SHUTZHUND? THEY WANT COMPANION PETS OR MAYBE A PUP TO RAISE AND WORK IN OBEDIENCE, SEARCH N RESCUE, AND THEY DO IF THEY ARE WORKING LINES. TITLING DOES NOT ALWAYS PROVE A THING, BUT THE DOG LEARNS TO BITE. SOME TITLE THAT SHOULD NOT AND BITE WHEN THEY SHOULD NOT, POORLY TRAINED AND RUSHED.