Training with force? - Page 4

wscott wrote:  "im ont saying you cant teach dog to track w/ out using force, im saying that if pressure is used the dog will have more accountabily for his actions.  Ive seen many many folks trakc w/ out using force.  there are several folks in our club that do not use any type of force or pressure when tracking.  and theyve spent the last few years trying tofigure out why thier dog does not stay commited to the track. AND THERE IS NO WAY THEY COULD EVER, EVER,EVER "V" TRACKING IN TWO NATIONAL EVENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I have never trained my dogs in force - that is not to say it isn't useful when the dog must have it in order to track.  But, not necessary for dogs that are self-motivated to track - or "natural tracking drive" dogs such as mine tend to be.  So, in response to wscott's post above:  My dog Eagle v Eichenluft 25X Schh3, FH 8X, FH2 - with MANY MANY "V" tracking scores, MOST of which were at National-level - was not force-trained.  Only motivational.  For example he had 100 pts in his Schh3 track at the 2006 AWDF National Championship, and 99 points on his FH track at the 2006 AWDF FH Championships - both tracks done ON THE SAME DAY. 

So anyway, it certainly can be done, and done well, without force - depending on the dog and who is training him.

molly

tacking with e collars is not "FORCE"?  Beating a dog into defense prior to going on the field is not force?  Twisitn g his ear before going on the field to get attention is not force? 

"For your clarity - I did force tracking with a sharpened prong (gasp! sharpened?) and laid straight line tracks with an article about every 50-75 feet. The dog - in a platz - was my track marker, no flags, arrows, or anything.

When I returned to the dog, he was told to "such". If that nose came up, or he quit, his muzzle was stuffed into the track, the prong was pulled tight, and KEPT tight, and he was hauled by his neck and face to the article. Then he was slammed into a platz. Don't misunderstand "slammed" - no bones were ever broken. A foot on the shoulder area empasized the platz."

Wow, that is a lot of force.  I don't see how that can produce anything but a dog that hates articles and tracks only because force will be applied.  What does he then do when he makes a mistake?  Can he find his own way back to the track or does he panick because he knows he's going to get "slammed?"  Sounds to me like a dog who never had a proper foundation and the handler is compensating for this with force.  Just an opinion.  I know you will now slam me.  Go ahead.

why  hello Molly, i actually started put "w/ the exception to molly"

i think your pretty much the exception to the rule.  my overall point is "that you can use corrections or force when needed, and in the right amounts and have a well tracking dog"  now there are people who use all force that fail miserably, just like folks who use all motivation who fail as well.  but think those that are at he top of the schutzhund world are somewhere in the middle.

a few question for you...  Do you use a prong collar or e-collar in OB or protection?

 are you saying that you have never checked  your dog w/ a prong or fursaver if he was off the track? was 100% of your traning hands off, did you just lay the track and let him fugure it out? 

use use 100% motivation while wallace payne will use pressure when needed. you dont use his system and he doesnt use yours.  why because you arent wallace and wallace isnt you. you each use what works for you.  im of he opinion to have a consitantly tracking dog you will need to correct the dog on the track.  now that correction can be force tracking, a check on a pinch collar and every thing in the middle. so while i appluad you being able to not use any corrections on the track, i can  look to your 1 dog that has accomplished those score, but on the other hand id guess at least 90% of the dogs at the WUSV and 95% of the dogs in he top 20 have had some type of correction on the track.

wanderer said "I don't see how that can produce anything but a dog that hates articles and tracks only because force will be applied."  i think that is what this forum is for.  just because you cant see it doenst mean it cant exist.  just like i dont see how you can have a dog that has NEVER been corrected (force tracked, checked w/ a pinch collar etc..  even to the slightest degree) and still "V" at big events. and yet Molly has done it.

all too often folks get tied up in this method and that method they are too busy looking at how they do it they cant open their minds to see how others do it.  IMO on the only system that work or everyone is the Bruce Lee system of "Jeet Kune Do" the style of no style.  Mr Lee concepts was to posses everything, yet me possesed by nothing. 

So if  you can posses the ability to train and teach w/ motivation, use only what force is needed, the ability to posses many styles of training, and not be posses by one style of training.  you will excell in this sport.  if you cannnot you will shortchange you and your dog.

RH Friend :

tacking with e collars is not "FORCE"?  Beating a dog into defense prior to going on the field is not force?  Twisitn g his ear before going on the field to get attention is not force? 

yep, that would definately be force.  But if you're talkign about me, I don't use those methods.  Never have.  So for me, no I don't use force methods for tracking.  Or for obedience or protection :)

Wscott - yes I do track with prong, on Eagle - because without prong he drags me bodily down the track.  He is very driven for the track, and very strong :)  Yes, I do use leash-correction and verbal corrections as needed.  When/if the dog is sniffing deer poop off the track, or overshoots an article, yes.  Corrections - but I don't think that is the same as "force tracking".  Semantics, maybe.  I train motivationally, in obedience too - but yes prong and verbal corrections come in when necessary, always followed by reward/praise.  But that IMO is not "force training".

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Steve,

  Please expand on your last paragraph.  That is a VERY important concept when using "force", whether for the retrieves or tracking.  I think if you are going to tell people here, many of them novices, about this training make sure that they understand your last paragraph.

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molly

agree that what you saying is not force, but i wouldnt say it is 100% motivational.  id say 100% motivational would be ONLY using rewards to get the correct behaviour.  so when your dog smells deer poop you would just say "no" then let him continue tracking when ever he is ready.

its hard to ague w/ success. i can say that you method does not work,  just like there have been many 98,99,100 pts track done by those that force tracking,  ecollar etc...

how do you argue w/ success?????

Steve,

  I was referring to your statement regarding allowing a dog to quit.  I think that it is important that you tell people that if they are going to use pressure they must see it through until the desired result is achieved, that allowing the dog to quit   cannot be an option.  

  I think often times people hear about these methods and try to use them, but when they see their dog under stress they become so distressed themselves that they just stop.   That is why I asked that you expand on that statement so that people will understand this before trying to force track or retrieve.