Training with force? - Page 5

Its nice to read & follow a thread with serious discussion regarding training & training differences.

It becomes almost a rhetorical question... Is there more than 1 way to skin a cat?   Or train a dog in this case?

Answer is obviously yes.

Many dont force track & have great results & Great trackers. FH, FH2s, Accomplished S & R dogs etc.  But I can see the benefits using this technique in many dogs that arent self motivated or disciplined/Driven enough in their tracking or occasionally sloppy.. 

It parallels some hunt training... whereby you send the dog out  on a retreive intentionally to fail,  & give it a strong reprimand it wont forget when it returns empty handed,  then sending dog back out again,   only with an article  strategically placed to be found this time,  to rebuild the confidence in the exercise & dogs ability to be relentless in its search.  

Wanted to mention too, that of having absolute reliability.

This technique would instill that in your work.  

If my livlihood as a cop or rescue involved a dog to perform such necessary & important searches, this would be the technique I used, in almost all but the rarest of cases..force tracking

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I do use light pops on the line, and verbal corrections, also loose line/verbal praise as my method of "correction" - however the training is done motivationally, with food reward, praise and yes, letting the dog figure out his mistakes and work through them successfully.  Obviously I have done something right, with 5 dogs from 0 to Schh3 many many times and nearly all V scores in all scorebooks, in all conditions and very few club trials.    Eagle is very strong, therefore in training he does wear a prong collar, so that he does not pull.  No correction needed.  in trial, he does pull but the training comes through and he doesn't "drag me bodily down the track" LOL.  As is evidenced by the very many V scores he's received in many National-level trials under many many different USA and SV judges.  If anyone  (Steve included) had ever ACTUALLY SEEN Eagle tracking in a trial, you would know that he does so very methodically, footstep to footstep, pencils his corners, nice and slow, calmly and with purpose.  He gets the job done and never needs help from me.  The harder the condition the better score he gets, because the harder he works and the more careful he is.  All motivationally TRAINED - and yes corrections (light pops on the line and verbal corrections followed by praise/loose line) when he makes SOME mistakes such as sniffing off-track, or overshooting articles.  I do allow him to work out other mistakes such as getting off-track slightly due to wind, terrain, etc - or overshooting corners slightly due to the same - bottom line is, the way I train my dogs, they are not worried about what might happen to them if they fail, or make a mistake.  They know I am with them as a team, to support and help them.  The problem with a force-trained dog is, yes they may be VERY careful, get the V scores and not make any mistakes - but when they DO make a mistake, they can quickly fall apart and be unable to continue at all.

I am not against force-training as long as it is done in a non-abusive and cruel way.  It can get the job done.  It can produce the V scores and a dog who always works hard, because the consequences of failing are very serious for that dog.  The differences as I see it - is the motivationally trained dog WANTS to track, they ENJOY tracking, they look forward to the reward at the articles, and the praise from the handler.  They are driven to TRACK.  The force-trained dog HAS to track, there is no choice, so he is working under pressure, fear of failure (what happens if he fails), the SAFE PLACE at the articles (instead of the reward found there) and the POTENTIAL FOR CORRECTION from the handler.  This force-trained dog can track, and can track with V scores every time.  But if something happens, a mistake is made, and in the trial you cannot correct your dog - then the dog can fall apart and get 0.  If my dog makes a mistake he may lose some points because he is continuing to search to correct his mistake on his own, but he will resume tracking again.  Eagle's lowest score ever I believe was 85 and that was with a missed article and very difficult conditions, causing trouble on the corners. 

Oh and Steve, I never lie.

molly

Molly, very nice explanation.  I agree with you completely.

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go for it Steve - and how many dogs have you successfully (as in V scores during National-level trials under multiple judges etc) trained and titled????  Now, don't lie.....

molly

Huh?  I read Mollys posts to mean during training/practice she always tracks with a pinch so that come trial day when he only has a fursaver on he won't drag her down the track.  I don't see anything confusing or a lie.

I think force tracking is another tool in the tool bag, not for everyone or every dog.  I think  only very experienced trainers should use this particular method.  Like many other methods/equipment if misued the dog can be hurt, but it can also be very good  when done right.

Steve, go back in your cave where the other cave men live.  Molly's record and training speak for themselves.  It's funny how women (ok, and men too) who are top trainers find ways to work "with" their dogs rather than browbeating them into submission which those who have an excess of testosterone and a general lack of understanding, intelligence and sensitivity tend to do.