Training with force? - Page 8

LuckyChucky

The kohler method is fine for a reliable  pet. 

Even sport dogs get corrected, you do realize that, right?  Sport dogs are motivated in a positive way as a opposed to negative reinforcement. 

Like everything, it can be abused.

Steve,

You must use the method YOU are happy with, Having recently spent seven days with Ismael De Vos in Belgium , having what can only be described as FUN, in the rain and snow. With my young female GSD out of Zidane Vom Haus Sevens. I suffer seriously with Psoriatic Arthritus and take serious drugs to combat the pain. But I really had fun armed solely with a clicker, this was my FUN.

About six months ago I also spent a week in a training club in Germany and saw the methods used for forced retrieve and track, I DID NOT Have FUN, I did not give my dog any grief, but the people who were training do well within the competition system in Germany. They are obviously having FUN, but it is not for me.

Force is for the Individual and thier supposed best friend, yes you might not win using the softer methods, but then how did Ismael De Vos do it three times with two diffrent dogs using only the clicker.

Personally giving your best mate shit is not having fun, but that is my opinion only

I wish you the best endeavours with your training, if you are ever in the UK come visit and have a beer and chat.

Woolshan

I would like to clear up this negative reinforcement stuff. Don i don't think you truely understand Koehler and like most people only focus on the corrections given. You don't relize that there are weeks of ground work with NO CORRECTIONS along with much praise. The dogs are always praised when correctly responding to a command. DOgs are even praised after a  correction when they complete the task asked of them. The only difference is we don't use a toyor ball and rope  like in schutzhund training or a treat in other methods. The praise is always there, GOOD BOY, GOOD GIRL always giving them praise for doing it right. People never talk about the praising that goes on in Koehler its one of the  most important things to the method not just the corrections. SO evern though i ear pinched her to get her article or dumbell or scent marker i always praise her after she completes it and when she does it on her own. Its very important that the praise be just as strong as the correction one can not out weight the other.

woolshan i would be interested to learn more about  Ismaël De Vos. I would like to know if his clicker training can be applied to problem dogs or just hand picked working dogs. WOuld a clicker work with training dog aggresive dogs or people aggresive dogs, or even shy or timid dogs. At some point he is probably going to move on to another dog or implement some type of correction. I may be assuming to much here, either way i would be interested to learn about his methods with such dogs and distractions.

Don i do agree with you that it can be abused and for anyone looking to do force retrieve or tracking please do the ground work. Make sure the dog understands what you want before you correct him this will lead to a confused and discouraged dog. And always always praise them for doing it right. And when you move to correction after the ground work please set up as many successes you can before challenging a harder track or turn or anything that will cause the dog to make a mistake.  ground work, praise, successes, then distractions diffficulty and corrections followed by praise. If done correctly your dog will enjoy tracking and retrieving as much as you do.

I cannot reply for Ismael, but I am sure he will have an answer for you, should you go to his website. But I have to say I have only seen these methods used on sports dogs, and they were remarkable improvements made.

It is a new system to me and I am learning each training session, it has made me considerably more patient and also believing I am capable of more from my dog than I previously thought. But then I was not a competition guru, I just enjoy my dogs for what they are and what they can achieve with a little help from me and the training team at my club

Woolshan

clicker training has been used since before the 2 world war and is applicable in any discipline with any type of dog with aggression issues etc etc.

Geert de Bolster has conducted two workshops on aggression in the UK and the results were outstanding

there are loads of other examples I could give; it works because it is non confrontational and therefore not threatening to the dog and so you build trust a fundamental in training dogs.

I do believe that Geert had a hand in some influence with Ismael De Vos

I have to say it is a very enjoyable training method that works for me and my dogs, it has changed by training regime

Woolshan

thank you guys for the input. I have used koehler so that is what i know but i am always open to new training methods. But i am one that believes with my eyes. i wish there was a training facility in my area to check out. I am in the chicagoland area if you guys know of any.

LuckyChucky

I understand the Koehler Method.  I used it for many years.  Like I said, it is fine for a reliable pet. 

Perhaps you should look into the differences of positve reinforcement vs negative reinforcement.  Yes, yes, I know.  They are working for "praise".   

Do you have kids?    Well let me tell you that they love praise!  They love to hear how great they are and that you are proud of them.  This will get you so far.  I'm not saying that you have to bribe kids, but a little positive reinforcement will go a long way.  My wife, her sister-in-law, and myself spent a few weeks trying to get my daughter to go #2 on the potty.  All I heard for two weeks was, "Good girl",  "You can do it" and "Everyone is going to be so proud of you, etc.".  After watching this prodiuce very little progress, I bought a "Dora the Explorer"  book and other minor treats and toys.  Needlesstosay, within a day she had the book and she was now a princess with a throne.

What do parents do for children that get good grades?  Is it always an "Atta Boy!"  or are they rewarded in some way? 

Why would dogs be any different?

Look at the dolphin.  Very intelligent.  Great communication and learning skills.  How are they trained?  Very easily for a few salty fish.

The point is that we all need motivational tools.  If your boss continually told you, "great job!  Your the man!!!", but never compensated you with promotions, raises, or a bonus, would the Praise be enough? 

Again, let me re-iterate.  Koehler is fine for a reliable pet.  Anything beyond a famly pet will require more.  I am not saying that Koehler is bad and you should not use it.  All I am saying is that there is more out there.  The times have changed and other methods have come and gone.