American Bred GSD Hatemail... - Page 4

I think so, Micky D. I never made it past a CD with any of mine

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut, but.....here goes. My first purebred German Shepherd Dog was an Am-bred/German showlines. She's here on the Database, & I adore her. If she hadn't been the sweet, intuitive, utterly biddable, eager to tackle any task, trained for it or not, not to mention gorgeous dog that she is, I never would have ventured further into the GSD world. She is everything a good GSD should be-& if you don't think being able to deal with a bunch of screaming kids isn't work....just try it with your GSD! There aught to be a special title for that! LOL! It takes steady nerves, & the ability on the part of the dog to understand when to react & when not to, & my girl knows this. No amount of training can impart to the dog the ability to mentally cope with that kind of stress, & still be relaxed & fun with the kids. My working lines don't have that....I'm not sure what to call it...sensitivity??? Beckett loves the kids, but when they play together, Beckett sees a running child---& he will invariably knock them down, if I let him. Kali will run with them, pass them, turn & do the play bow, or push them around with her head & shoulder, never even nipping, as a dog herding sheep might. I can trust her. (my caveat here is that you NEVER leave a dog alone with a child-NEVER!) And she has protected me, without getting aggressive; she stood her ground, barking at the threat, but stayed with me, backing up along side me, keeping herself between my grandkids & me, and the guy, facing the guy who was threatening me, barking & growling until he decided she was serious & took off! Then she shook herself off looked up at me like, "You OK?" & that was it, & my granddaughter gave her a big hug...although she kept tabs on the dudes direction & whereabouts. If I introduce her to someone, she's generally friendly---if she growls, I know not to trust them, either. When I had a diabetic reaction, she kept me awake until I could get some juice: yep, just call her Lassie, or maybe RinTinTin. She lives up to the hype. I don't need a SchH 3, or a CDX on her to know what kind of dog she is, tho' if I had a bunch of money she could easily acheive either....she is what a German Shepherd Dog should be.....& I'm proud of her! jackie harris

BREED SHOW REGULATIONS:

4. Ratings

4.1 At breed shows as set forth under para. I. 1.1.1. to 1.1.3, the following ratings can be issued:

"Excellent" - Animals in the Adult Class who, after undergoing a thorough examination, fully conform to the breed standard, who are self-confident, outgoing, and indifferent to gun fire, whose pedigree shows the "a" stamp or proof of OFA certification and when more than 3-1/2 years old, must be breed surveyed.  Double premolars #1 are allowed.

SS REGULATIONS: 

4.2 At the National Breed Show, the rating "Excellent-Select" is awarded in addition to the ratings shown under 4.1, which requires proof of the following criteria:

To qualify for a V-Select rating, dogs must have currently a breed survey ranking of Class 1, have complete and faultless dentition, or must have a dental notation as established by the breed book office, and must have at least a SchH 2 title or equivalent. They must come from a survey and performance breeding_. Dogs competing for the V-Select rating a second time must have a SchH 3 title. Dogs competing for the V-Select rating a second time must have a SchH3 title.

The SV doesn't issue "championships" based on a point system as does the AKC.    So lets compare apples to apples unless of course you feel one single V rating in a local show should be considered the equivelent of an AKC Championship title. 

I have been to many AKC shows but stopped watching the GSD ring because it was so heartbreaking.  Aside from the exagerations in conformation and gait, I saw too many fearful, spooky dogs get put up.   

The problem folks, whether you like to admit it or not, is all the lines have there problems. All the lines have good and bad temperments and conformation within them. Because we are talking Am. showline here mostly, lets think about the litter as a whole. Maybe one pup goes on to make a championship, very rarely will the whole litter. The other pups in the litter would most likely not have the fronts or rears to make it in the ring. So therefore most likely they would have more eye appeal to most not liking the littermate that just won in the ring. Same genetics though.The same goes for temperment, alot depends on environment and some on genetics. I say some because you can ruin a good pup and build up a poor pup thru environment. In the German lines( keepin' it generalized) the same is true for structure. They aren't all little clones. The same for working ability, very few dogs go on to be titled or worked period for that matter. So lumping all American bred showlines into one category is kind of ridiculous.

katjo great points on qualifications a V dog needs. A dog can also acquire and SG rating in the adult class with no working titles. I owned an SG1 from the 1992 Sieger show.

Blitzen as usual you have a great posts and common sense!

Kalibeck that was such a heartwarming story. Reminds me of my old dogs, they just seemed so in tune.

Sue, no it is not ridiculous to bring up the SS, it just happened and is a good comparison of what goes on in the training/trialing world. And it has nothing to do with how I feel about the Highline dogs because I own one. I also own a working line dog and in most peoples opinions she was a POS. Why, because she is unstable. I have had her from a pup and she will die in my arms. Just like my half bred dogs. I have also owned and worked around other working and showlines and crosses and guess what, like I said they all have problems. I don't have to run to Oli because I don't care for your opinion anymore than you need to for mine. I am a big girl and can take care of myself. Now that was a ridiculous thing to say. (edit) The run to Oli part, need more coffee.

You are right, it was ridiculous, as was your remark to Realcold regarding he return to his residence!   I guess this is a heated subject for many of us.  I'm going to bow out of this discussion.  I think those of you who think everything is just peachy keen with the state of the American Line dogs and think they are on a par with dogs of the SV system  need to take off your rose colored glasses.

Regarding AKC titles- I've done a UD and man, was it a bitch. We did it 12 tries which I hear is pretty damn good. I think european GSD lovers OWE it to the breed to at least perform in AKC events. I think it's crucial for the judges and the public to see different types, which I why I go as often as I do. Definitely don't look down on it unless you've tried it.

Now, crappy specimens included, lump together ALL the dog at our SS and ALL the dogs at an AKC National Specialty and you will find a much higher percentage of dogs capable of work at a SS.

Please don't pretend that AKC judges don't look the other way when the dog panics for the exam, snips at them, or damn near falls off the podium when a photog's flash goes off. I have seen these things with my own eyes, and those judges and those dogs do the breed every bit the same disservice as the ones that passed piss poor performances at our SS.  And I'm sure there are AKC people furious over it, just like we were furious over the SS.

I'll tell you, I have a lot more respect for AKC CH dogs that have SOME kind of performance title, obedience, agility, herding, tracking, SOMETHING. At least those breeders are trying to keep up some semblance of workability.  A CH with none of those? Every damn bit as worthless as a V dog with a "midnight trial" score. They all go in the same boat for me. So please do not also assume that we european fanciers think our lines are perfect, either.

 Sueinc said: 

Let me be very clear:  I HATE what they have done to the breed in this country.  Even worse, the idiots are so damn arrogant they don't care.  I will always resent them for turning the  breed I love into a good for nothing show pony.   What passes for GSDs in AKC shows (specialty or all breed) is nothing short of sickening.  

Kind of ridiculous to keep bringing up the San Jose SS as if it somehow proves something bad about German Line dogs in general, especially since Am Line dogs DON'T DO ANY WORK AT ALL so there is no comparison.

Sue:  TOO true!!!  I used to go to the AKC shows all the time.  But, my love for this breed led me to be physically ILL at what has been done to the breed in this country.   I am ALIVE ONLY because of my first gsd--who was AMBRED.  She is STILL the standard by which I judge my other dogs.  But, that was decades ago, before the AKC ruined its version of the breed.

Katjo:  In order for a dog who is over 3 1/2 to get a V rating in a show, it must not only have the sch title, it MUST be breed surveyed, which means also passing an AD (endurance test).  I have NEVER heard of any AMBRED passing an AD. Have you?   To achieve VA, the dog must have at least a Sch II. 

Sue, you are right my comment to realcold was not very nice, not usually my style. I was getting ready for bed and he calling katjo an idiot pissed me off. I hate that word and a few other adjectives that get thrown around here to discribe people. Especially when he made the statement  to someone just trying to help and in no way was being derogatory. I also never said I thought everything was peachy keen with the Am. show dogs. I did say all lines have their problems though. I personally like the cross, not necessarily the all  Am.showline, I am just not so narrow minded to think they are all bad.

KC I do agree that the AKC should require a title in at least the Working and Herding group before a Ch. is awarded. Probably some of the Sporting dogs too as they work as well, like Labs, Goldens etc. if they are even in that group (?). But I doubt it will happen because if one group has to do it, it may well be said all groups should too. I think they "all" should have a minimum of h/e required. After all they are going to be bred most likely. And yes, you are right, the percentage would be way up for SS dogs over National Specialty dogs to be able to work. I also am sure judges from all venues look the other way, some maybe are getting their palm padded while others a best golfing buddies with the competitors.

 I also never have made it past a CD. I tried a few times for a CDX but always missed one portion of the exercises. The UD is just mind bogling, then you have to do it all 3 times. So congrats on your UD. Also please don't think I am not a European fancier. I currently have 3 dogs, 2 are all German. One showline, one DDR/working. My third is about 90% working/showlines with the rest American. I do prefer the German dog, but I had some good mixes and I just hate seeing them all lumped into the POS category. I truly loved these dogs, maybe I was obsessed with them, because they left a hole the size of the Grand Canyon in my heart when they passed. So I guess I get defensive when people start slamming the Am. lines, its like they are slamming my old dogs, if that makes sense.

Mystere Here's one I pulled out of the archieves of my mind. A friend of mine knew the people and sent me a video of him years ago before his SchH1 title. I was really surprised at all of his other accomplishments. http://www.hinterlandgsd.com/kondor.htm

Also Nocturne's Navigator who is half American, Helen Gleasons dog, you can type in his name here.

I could pass an AD with any of my ASS dogs!!

In fact we run 6km every other day..me and 4 GSD...They are all OFA and have absolutly no problem with endurance...

WE JUST DON'T HANG OUT WITH WORKING PEOPLE BECAUSE WE GET LAUGH AT AND BASHED ALL THE TIME..THAT IS WHY WE ARE JUST NOT INTERSTED IN YOU WORKING TYPE OF THINGS ANYMORE..YOU DON'T WANT US THERE ANYWAY SO..

PROBABLY MY ASS DOGS WOULD DO THE AD MUCH EASIER THAN ANY OF YOUR WORKING DOGS..CAUSE they have a nice smooth gait that could go around all day..BUT OF COURSE..PROBABLY NOBODY KNOWS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT LOL

AN AD DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING ANYWAY...NOT EVEN A WORKING TITLE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERN!