American Bred GSD Hatemail... - Page 5

Did I say anything about VA conformation ratings and the requirements for such? NO-not once. Did I bring up SELECT CHAMPION titlements for AKC? NO-not once. I tried to keep it simple for the sake of general compairing.
Nothing you have said has unvalidated what I have stated in this entire subject matter.

Thank you, Trailrider, for your understanding & caring. It's truly appreciated. You're right; I'm only trying to be a voice of reason. I'm not against anyone or trying to cause riffs. 

Plenty of nice males are V-rated and only have SchH1 but go on to get KKL1A-ed (which means yes, they got their AD at some point). One is in my general neck of the woods. But it is not mandatory to recieve a KKL1A to be V-rated and SchH1. (This dog went V11 in US regional shows, SG40 in German show-info in the link on German show) . So I know for a fact a dog can have a V-rating and not a SchH2 or SchH3 title. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/442243.html.
A female of noteworthy mentioning: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/401143.html.
There are plenty of females in WGR show line pedigrees who have V-ratings and only SchH1.

Should an American bred dog have to earn or at least attempt at a working title (CD or better)? Sure.
Should an American bred GSD have its hips checked? Absolutely; they need it done just as bad as German bloodline breeders need to have their a-stamps done. The AKC is just not going to make such mandatory like the German SV because of  the $$ they would lose by doing such(because if such a requirement existed, alot of GSD litters would not be AKC registerable because of hips that probably couldn't pass OFA-Fair or better for the parents). If the AKC will pass such legislation as to to allow owners to change the official name of their dogs for $25 if the breeder wasn't the one who paid to have the dog named in the first place, then they're not gonna limit breeding over something like OFAing of hips. I definitely understand where some get frustrated with the AKC.

Regardless of the pedigree or politics sadly embedded into just about any breed, GSDs would fare better for their owners to be off their tushes doing something with them. If they can't or don't wanna do schutzhund, then should they sit at home and do nothing because they don't like what YOU like and approve of? No-people have a freedom to choose what they want to do without having to feel like they're in the wrong. Do something you & your dog as a team enjoy, but do it. Most people who compete in AKC obedience do it themselves; they don't pay a handler to do it for them like seen more in SchH (before you go jumping the gun on this one-I did not say everyone who shows their dog in SchH pays a handler to do it for them; it is seen more common in SchH than AKC obedience, and we're not talking AKC conformation showing, either-keep it in context, please). I am not going to say a single negative thing about someone being willing to self-train and self-show their own dogs- if they can, get in there and do it. It's great & strengthens the bond with your GSD companions, whether its SchH OR AKC, or therapy dog work, or SAR....it's ALL good.

I have witness

-ed plenty of AKC obedience competitions. It does take alot of work, but it's neat.

Sue, I'm not sure every single extremely bred American GSD could pass an AD, no-probably not. I never said they could. But I bet some definitely COULD.  When it comes to the sadness of SOME of the American GSDs and what has been done to them, you're preaching to the choir here. I know. I've seen it.

But I'm open-minded enough to know I've seen some nice American GSDs also. And yes, for political reasons alot of American GSD people shy away from such 'competition' because of the degree of hostility they are made to feel in general-how sad. Why not treat them decent and give them a chance to prove themselves (or, prove you 'right')? Probably will never happen.

RC, good to see you're still around. 

Sue, Nia, RC, and 4-pack great posts.    And yes my first GSD was an ASS but not a slanted back hock walker.  I've been to a few AKC breed shows, watching the ASS moving around was so painful for me to watch I ended up leaving the show.

Some may want to go back and read the interview with  Moses on his views about Dallas.  Part of the gist was however many breedings they had to do, even with poor or not able to be hip rated females, to get the "right" look is what they would do.  And he is being talked about here as being so great????????

http://www.thedogplace.org/Handlers/Moses_Interview.htm

Excerpt from link:

I think out of the seventy-some puppies my wife has bred from this dog we had only one that wouldn’t get an OFA number. He’s been bred to a dozen bitches that wouldn’t get a number. That’s the reason I bred to him to begin with; character and good hips. I had a beautiful bitch that was the top-scoring champion at our national in the herding trial but she wouldn’t get a number on one side and we almost weren’t gonna breed her and we decided to try this dog (smiling proudly down at his dog, Jimmy reached out and stroked Dallas on the cheek) and we got six OFA champions from the breeding.

The more I learn about "Dallas" and Mr. Moses, the more impressed I am. I hope he keeps trying to educate the rest of us AKC people on what a GSD should look, move, and act like. I am glad he is still around and I hope people see things more his way. A GSD should be able to work. He should know when to be protective and when to be gentle. He should have sound, fluid movement. I think he really has a great interpretation of the standard.

Well IMO dogs without an OFA number should not be bred. But likewise OFA considers a nz a non-passing score and many dogs are bred with it. Also lets not forget the time ratio of 1 year vs 2 years of age. http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

Moses learned to handle by going to the German Sieger and watching the handlers there. He's probably one of, if the the best, AKC GSD handler in the history of the breed if basing that honor on show wins alone. I'm pretty sure he has more wins under his belt with GSD's than any other pro.  At least 3 of his dogs were record setting winners in their day.

I don't agree with his breeding philosophy and wouldn't do it myself. However, Trailrider is right. NZ's are often compared to OFA mildly dysplastic, so in that respect Dallas would most likely have a low ZW rating given all the normal hips he's produced out of uncertifiable bitches.  Anyone using an NZ should probably not critisize Jimmie for what he is doing. I don't think it's a common practice in the AKC side of the breed to use dysplastics in a breeding program. The average AKC breeder would be tarred and feathered for breeding to so many dysplastic bitches. Not Jimmie

Trailrider and Blizten, I agree that no dog not ofa'd should be bred. What I like about Mr. Moses though, was what he said in the linked interview about structure and temperament. I agree also about what he said about the correct head on males. Sorry, I really didn't mean he was absolutely correct in every aspect, just that I like his thinking about what we should be breeding for in terms of structure. GSDs should be able to jump, etc.

OldMonkey, one of the most common complaints heard from the Am lines breeders was - "I don't like Dallas' head, it's too German" whatever "too German" means .  I never did quite understand that statement. I think that put Jimmie on the defensive when it came to GSD heads. Am lines breeders tend to go for a more refined head than we like and many of those dogs have Roman noses. I too agree with most of what Moses said in that interview (other than the part about breeding to the dysplastic bitches).  However, I'd like to see what the next generation out of the dysplastic dams produce and what their hips look like before I shove him under the bus.

LOL "before I shove him under the bus." Best laugh I had all dat Blitzen.

I also liked the Jim Moses Interview, and this stuck out for me.

 "if you watch them, they walk on their hock and their rear foot, like it’s all one bone. The same with the front feet and the pastern. When they trot, their foot and pastern hit the ground at the same time. These are dogs - if they had to jump over these little ring gates to get in to be shown - they’d never get shown."

So Advanced OB Degrees are out of the question as Jumping is a major portion.