outing - a new question - Page 1

this was woven into the thread marked nature vs. nuture - about dogs who refuse to out - but deserves a whole new thread I think. Let's assume the dog has a constant problem with outing (not something on trial day when the handler is nervous or the dog realizes he is 'free' of consequenses for a short time, for example) Theories presented in the previous thread ranged from poor inital training to nerve/temperment problems, and so on. My question is, do any of you see, in dogs who won't out, a parallel tendency towards aggression towards people OR other dogs (or both?)??? And for that matter, for those who have owned, trained, or observed at least several dogs with that problem, is there anything else that those dogs have in common? If you have read the previous thread on outing, my question might be a little clearer...

I also have 2 questions for trainers. 1) Do dogs that have problems outing also have an obsessive refusal to not out toys like balls and tugs. My dog is not formally trained for sport and has not been formally trained to out, but her rewards for obedience are tugs and balls. She has a thing about NOT wanting to out them (which slows down practice). It is a trait she shares with her grandfather, but I haven't seen this adamant, obsessive refusal with other dogs (given I am not used to seeing other sport dogs) 2) I have tried to teach her to out a ball by using choker corrections but found myself getting very hard on her and she still wasn't outing it. Being that these are her rewards I gave up and just let her not out on command. I guess it's not really a big deal because she doesn't do SchH, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have also heard that this is a good trait (to have for proteciton dogs) because training the out is easier than training strong full grips. Thanks, Melanie

GSDFAN -- first do you understand your dog ?? do you really know your dog ??? that is the begiinning here --- that goes directly to your relationship .. that is the start !! the most common problem with training is methods and ways .. .. so what is your dog thinking and feeling -- ?? -- can'y help you there as i can't see you both -- but contemplate that before you train -- next -- you want the dog to out .. so what for ??? that is to say you asked something of your dog to do , to give .. but what did you offer in return that [not you ] that the DOG wants ... -- i teach my dog to out because in doing so it has come to first understand then actually learn that it ALWAYS gets something 2x better that it wants ... so what does your dog want ?? another bite , another chase , another l;ike toy , or fod .. or anything else -- one last word .. the dog miust never be concearned or worried .. for example that it will l;ose it's prey item , or that it is pressured/or in an insecure position /situation afer outing .. so now full circle --- do you know your dog ??

I have a similar problem with a dog who is very possesive with toys, and often refuses to out them, but he usually does out the sleeve and he does have a very full strong grip. Maybe its a training thing as he came to us already basically trained, though he wasn't at that time outing the sleeve. Now he will usually release the sleeve, (sometimes on the third call) but its still often a nightmare getting toys off him. We are working on this now with a correction collar which had not been used previously. ..... but like Melane would appreciate any tips, as she says it holds up training when they won't release the prize! I don't think that dogs who refuse to out are more aggresive to people - in fact it often seems to be the aggressive ones are nervous and fail to bite, or don't bite well. My dog, though stubborn and possessive, is totally unagressive to people.

posted mine before reding Alphapup's message, you are right of course, and if they are atraid of losing the toy they start mouthing which is not what we want. We always reward our dog when he does aus , but still he doesn't want to give it up, usually....

"My question is, do any of you see, in dogs who won't out, a parallel tendency towards aggression towards people OR other dogs (or both?)???" ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! My male doesn't like to out ANYTHING, ball sleeve stick, you name it, in exchange for it, I always reward him with another ball, stick to throw or something he wants just as bad. This dog is the BEST dog one could ever wish for, NO aggression towards ANY other dog unless being attacked himself. LOVES people, unless I'm uncomfortable , then he goes on autopilot and starts blocking them, no aggression though, unless they get too close, then he gets on his hind legs and pushes them WITHOUT biting. Now, no one's ever touched me and put real fear in me, but, i know he'll bite them as he was trained for personal protection and that included biting civil (no sleeve)

Actually I will disagree with Saoa on this one. If the dog has a nerve or an unsound temperament animal aggression or aggression can be possible. (maybe fear aggression) I think when dealing with dogs that are unsound, other problems are a direct result of the lack of nerve/temperament. Outing a play toy is 100% different and I feel mostly obedience. There is no threat coming from the toy so the dog is not pushed over that edge. Just disobedience and or the love of the toy :-)

ALPHAPUP's point about really understanding dog is good. Properly intoducing the out at early age with toy`s makes life much easier, so I agree with ALPHAPUP that you must make reward for out 2X greater. Then there is no slow down in training waiting for out. And this also empowers the dog to know how to reward him self by outing, then game continues. This concept works great for whole obedience routine, when dog knows what to do to get reward. A dogs nerves may come in to play preventing a clear head. If head is not clear then dog may not be able to look past the possession in his mouth. "parallel tendency towards aggression towards people OR other dogs" possible if its a nerve issue.

ALPHAPUP, thanks- Oh she'll remember what out means real quick if I have another ball cocked and ready to throw. Or another tug ready to bite. When swimming (retrieving bumpers) or just throwing the frisbee I ALWAYS have to have two of them to keep the game going. Unfortunately she won't out for food AT ALL. Even A nice jucy piece of filet mignon. I wish she would, it would be easy to use food to out in training, but always having to rotate toys, I am back to slow practices. Even when she plays with the ball in the house. She'll stare at me with the ball in her mouth and I know she wants me to throw it again, but she cannot bring herself to let it go.

I have taught a lot of dogs the "out"...and every dog, no matter whether it's a young dog or an experienced dog, I start the same way and that's in obedience...I will play with the dog with some sort of "tug"...it can be a small tug, no larger then your 2 hands put together or a piece of hose...can be either hard hose or a garden hose...it just depends on which dog I'm working and if they have a hard bite...then when the dog has been put into drive with the tug...I then hold both sides of the tug (and hold on tight)...until the dog lets go of the tug,then block the tug with your hands...so the dog can't re-bite...then after just a couple of seconds give the dog the "bite" again...(but you don't let go)...*you have to give the reward (the re-bite) quickly at the beinning and as time goes on make the dog wait longer and longer until you have him under control...I have had a very hard dog take up to a week to understand this and it was very hard on my hands and arms until he would let go of "his" object...the key in all dog training is to be patient and all of a sudden the light bulb goes on...if I can help you more you can e-mail me...BleuHaus@msn.com