A tad bit confused - Page 1

We always hear that the current show GSd has three bloodlines behind it Canto, Quanto and Mutz.. What does this imply or signify...could somone plz explain this...sine there were and are so many top gsds ...what does this imply.. cheers Fida

Fida, Dahling, are you reading old books ? Canto, Quanto and Mutz P. are way too old to be of any consequence - even to me who could have co-authored "Who Moved my Cheese". Please, move into at least the 90's -- The "old dogs" are so far off the page - these dogs are from the 60's -- Today we have new anchors - Zamb, Q Arminius; fedor, Uran/Eiko Kirschental - P litter Wildsteigerland; Odin/Jeck - The Arlett and Bad-Boll boys, etc. If you chart all of them - you can get yourself back to all the older dogs - The main issue here is really how closely are these dogs related -- You're first three generations may APPEAR to be UNRELATED -- but go futher back and you will quickly stumble upon 3 or 4 times Uran or someone else -- good or bad -- and that's what I would want to know -- In the old days - if you had Canto you had a light colored dog (maybe with an incorrect coat - too long) and questionable hips -- folks liked to blame him because the story was his hips were bad- regardless of what his "a" stamp said. If you had Quanto -- or his mother - you should be concerned about Hemophelia - as she was a known (?) or suspected (?) carrier. If you had Mutz P. - well I guess that was pretty wonderful -- After you've studied the OLD books - and you see the photos of the V litter Busecker Schloss, the Joll Bemholts, the Johnny Rheinhalle, and Jalf Fohlenbrunnen's and let us not forget my friend Klodo Eremitenklause (known for his excellent temperament - at least that's what I learned in the 70's) Racker, Drigon/Enno, Bodo Lierberg, Lasse di val Sol, etc. etc., etc. - then you at least know from where your dog has come -- Who's light, who's dark, who has angles, who doesn't, who has a mind, who is just for show -- the genetic components take a bit more digging - The chronic bad elbows, the soft ears, that keep mysterously re-appearing generation after generation. Yes, my dear, I have moved off of Canto/Quanto, and at least now, if I happen to see Dingo vom Haus Gero/Casar Arminius line I know there's 2 Canto's and a Quanto 10 years earlier. So what ? It took me a long time to learn NOT to judge a dog by his pedigree along -- This came from games with my friends -- they gave me a pedigree and 4 photos -and we played match to pedigree to the dog !! You think it's easy ?? Then I've trashed pedigrees because they did not contain dogs of my liking - and 5 minutes later met the (second) nicest dog in the world -- Thankfully, dog's can't read - they don't know that their pedigree is Royal or Common -- They just know they think the world of you and will forgive and forgive and forgive again.

Pine, You still manage to amaze me, but great stuff! Only thing is, now you've got Fida truly confused! The best.

Fida, the best way to see the use of the three male lines is to look at the Urma books. it can be confuseing because the sire line is used for the progeny, even tho there are always some more like the dam's line.

hahahhahahaha i know abt the bew dogs..about uran, ulk, Zamb ,eiko and the works ...and also the soon to be future pillars such as jeck and his line thru hobby,ursus,and yasko. my main quewstion was that sinc ewe can keep track of tyhe more updated once and not abt the old ones i wanted to know what role the three dogs id mentioned had played in the propagation of the gsd... hope i am clearer now..

Hi Fida, As Pine's post indicated you are seeking relative easy answers to questions which require hard detailed study and where explanation is embedded within a complicated web of interlinking bloodlines. Unless you're willing to make the effort required, just accept on simplest level possible that four important bloodlines are represented by Jalk through Canto, Quanto or Wilma Kisselschlucht, together with latter branching off through Flora Konigsbruch. Mutz's influence is perhaps most felt via last line by way of Dax and Nick Wienerau (and only then as grandsons from memory?). And we haven't even mentioned Marko descent from Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen who also ....! These four lines not only instantly combine and recombine with each other but also with numerous other lines. I'll happily stand corrected by Pine on any of this though.

i think im just gonna stay with what happened after the 80s for now thank u...only way ill prbly be able to keep my head on straight...anyway guys thanx for the well meant advice... i ahve jeck now and think will just concentrate on his line...much easier..

Thanks olddog - my reputation is usually that I'm about as subtle as a sledgehammer. Also, I am known for the ability to start a conversation with a rock. I have only recently jumped back into the current state of the GSD in Germany as I stopped breeding over 10 years ago, and I was never interested in show lines. I thought I was going to be in for a lot of comments when I said show dog or a brain -- oops !! not what I meant exactly -- but I guess I shouldn't bring it up again -- I hate the fact that there are the less beautiful working dogs (lines) and the easy-on-the-eyes show lines -- I don't own them so I really don't know how wonderful they are -- I would generally prefer a German bred goat - to an American bred GSD - but again, it's because of my experience - and I do own that one heavily linebred Hawkeye gr gr granddaughter - but to me, she is one in a million - and I didn't go looking to buy her -she was given to us. FIDA, dearest, once the dog is off the page -- (past the 5th generation) -- it has to be only some vague point of reference (for old people like me) just something to tie it all together -- it's ancestory but not the active gene pool that has created the current litter. Lots of people agree, there is little effect past the 3rd generation - at that point - you're dealing with 14 dogs - add another gen- and you're up to 30 -- Unless you are linebred 3,3 - 4,4 on FIDO THE GREAT - you've effectively diluted any cookie-cutter effect that someone had designed 3 genereations before -- It's also how the american DOG got into the mess it is today. If Lance was nice, and his sons were nice, then if we breed his sons to his daughters they will be twice as nice, twice as fast. To make a long story endless--I can sum up with THE SINGLE most important thing I ever learned about breeding -- GENETIC DIVERSITY IS CRITICAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF THE SPECIES. So Uran 5-5 is better than Uran 4 times and 5 of his children linebred on his mother. (Besides, they'd be too light by then anyway, right?)

hahahhahahaha i know abt the bew dogs..about uran, ulk, Zamb ,eiko and the works ...and also the soon to be future pillars such as jeck and his line thru hobby,ursus,and yasko. my main quewstion was that sinc ewe can keep track of tyhe more updated once and not abt the old ones i wanted to know what role the three dogs id mentioned had played in the propagation of the gsd... hope i am clearer now.. I believe the ha ha's are on you, most who could put it togather for you are passed on. it will depend on each breeder and how the qualities of those lines were brought foward. good breeders wil have improved on the qualities, others will choose from the heart and fooled themselves and those who havn't seen the old lines. the Urma books are the best way to bring out the best from the lines. if the breeders chose right the qualities will still be in the lines, those who didn't have those placeing in the back of the classes. take in a few shows and ask questions, the lines are easy tp pick out for those who know how to look.

Pine, Blunt talk I like – gets you into strive here though! Saw your post to Top Kennel – couldn’t agree more – it’s all back to don’t worry about what you see, but about all the defective pups disposed off on the quiet to produce that one big Show ‘winner’! And how many of ‘wrong ones’ were result of intensive line breeding or inbreeding? Line breeding produces more predictable outcomes, important if you’re a big, commercially oriented Kennel! Diversity is essential for vigour, endurance and nous! Take look in database at how small size of declared litters are well before Jalk: how many pups were produced but not ‘right’ and never heard of! I thought Shep was always meant to be working dog from the start. Form follows function, or some such nonsense, and I can’t really see why top working animal shouldn’t look good too! From little I’ve seen of earlier US style of Show animal it also definitely isn’t my flavour – maybe that explains preoccupation now with German imports? I agree Jalk is now long way back. I tend to use it as your mentioned ‘vague point of reference’ because that’s where doubling and re-doubling up on Canto and Quanto starts. I mentioned the four lines above but again, it’s only convenience – you can easily take animals involved, together with heap of others, and recast the whole thing in hundreds of ways by changing emphasis or ranking/importance of dogs used. It also completely ignores the ‘purer’, lesser known working lines. Yes Gem: It's all so easy!