E Collars on 3.5 mo. old puppies???

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by justcurious on 09 March 2009 - 05:03

"For instance a puppy has a raging obsession with chasing cars." Christopher Smith
Put a leash on it, don't fry it. KCzaja

So your idea is to avoid the issue? What would you do to fix the problem? Christopher Smith

you're dealing with a 3.5 mo pup, no matter how headstrong or obsessed, there are many ways to address issues like this and none involve the use of an ecollar. at this age the primary goal is not correct behavior but rather to lay a foundation, to teach them what is acceptable and what is not, and to keep them alive.

so just off the top of my head not knowing anything about the pup christopher has imagined for this "what if" here's one possible approach:

i would start by working with the pup to teach what "stay calm" ("easy", "relax" or whatever you want to call it) is. you do this much like you would "sit" or any other basic command. once this is on cue expose the pup to a very slow moving car while asking him to "stay calm" (make sure you can stop any movement he might make towards the car). if he starts to show excitement have the driver stop the car. without showing any emotion other than calmness, slowly walk the pup to the car and let the pup smell it while you firmly stroke him making sure the tail is positioned low and move his body into a relaxed position.

once he begins to "soften" have the pup sit next to the car. when he looks at you and/or shows he is controlling his urge to react praise him and slowly & firmly stroke him. you can let the pup explore the interior of the car - open all the doors let him move in and out at will if he wishes. once he's done checking out the car (i.e. shows boredom) then have him join you some feet away and have the driver slowly drive while you remind the pup to stay calm/easy. if he stays calm have the driver drive by a few more times - 3 to 5 is a nice level of exposure for one session. you can even increase the speed a bit if you think it won't trigger a reaction, if you're not sure keep the speed low best not to trigger him. then repeat this daily or every day or 2 until he no longer reacts to a car moving at a normal speed.

if he gets charged up instead of staying calm repeat the beginning of the procedure - you might even have to go back and reinforce the "stay calm" command - but if not start again with having the driver drive by slowly, stopping if necessary to let the pup sniff & explore the car, reward the pup with praise and kindness (or food treats or clicker if you wish) whenever he exhibits the behavior you are looking for. continue working with him, talking to him and explaining that he is not allowed to chase cars but must stay calm by your side - be sure to keep your focus on what you want him to do. ....

by justcurious on 09 March 2009 - 05:03

con't ...
he will not understand what you are saying but he will know from your body language and the tone of your voice when you are pleased and when you are not. this process will help desensitize him to cars and look to you to know what he should or should not be doing, how he should or should not react, and when he is getting it right or getting it wrong. this is clearly just a rough outline but i'm sure you get the basic idea, even the scariest puppy impulses can be managed without resorting to ecollars.

i'm sure some people feel that their argument for the use of ecollars for any and all dogs make sense, and it may be better than choking or hanging a dog, but there are better ways to train particularly during this early stages of development. a lot of what you are doing when working with young pups is developing a bond and the ecollar does not aid this process. so whether or not you feel it's cruel (and imo it is cruel and unnecessary at this age) it does take away one of the most important parts of early training - bonding, learning how to learn and who to look to for guidance. in puppy training by focusing too much on 'results' at the expense of the learning & bonding process is risky at best and will in all likelihood create a real problem in the long term.

by eichenluft on 09 March 2009 - 06:03

There is no way in hell a 3.5 month old puppy is having behavior problems so extreme it needs an ecollar. Lets say pup does have an obsession with chasing cars, as Chistopher mentioned. Put a leash on it, don't fry it. If thats what you need to do to get an infant puppy to listen you are a piss poor excuse for a dog trainer.

So your idea is to avoid the issue? What would you do to fix the problem?

Avoid what issue? Trying to fix a training problem? IN A 3 MONTH OLD PUPPY?

by eichenluft on 09 March 2009 - 06:03

by Shezam1 on 09 March 2009 - 06:03

If the pup is freezing up, then there is no doubt that there is a serious disconnect in the manner in which it is being trained. Even with adult dogs, all initial e-collar training emphasised the point that the dog should first know the commands before using an e-collar. That being said however, I have seen e-collars being used to train without teaching the commands first. Apparently, a very low intensity stimulation causes a mild physical uneasiness in the trainee that makes it to stick to the handler and pay attention to what the dog is being guided to do. Since e-collar training is "escape" training and the stimulation ceases as soon as the desired action is achieved, learning is rapid if done correctly by a highly experienced trainer. In the wrong hands it can very easily lead to abuse like was being done in the last century in teaching a bear to dance to music by heating the tin plate it was standing on. So obviously if there is a freeze response, the trainer is doing it all wrong.

In my opinion, nothing can ever produce the highest level of enthusiasm and willingness to experiment, both in humans and in animals, that can result from positive reinforcement methods as compared to any other and this is more so in younger subjects. Perhaps, the highest level of response at the final stages of competition which involve very strong drives may lend itself to the use of e-collars to exercise control, but I have always had issues with mixing inducive and coercive methods of training.

by eichenluft on 09 March 2009 - 06:03

COntinued - hate when it does that -

There are no "training issues or problems to fix" in a 3 month old puppy. They are infants, babies - the only thing they should be thinking about is eating, sleeping, playing, and socializing at this age. Foundation "training" for food, foundation "drivework" by chasing rag - but training? OF COURSE NOT.

molly

by Christopher Smith on 09 March 2009 - 07:03

Do think it's appropriate to fry a baby puppy?

No. But good training with an e-collar does not “fry” the dog, no matter the age.

There is a rather large gap between 3 months and 2 years, plenty of ample time to introduce compulsion at a more approriate age.

There is no appropriate age to introduce compulsion but there is an appropriate level. One of the biggest disservices that we do to our dogs is waiting until the dog is older before introducing some level of compulsion. If a puppy is taught, with an appropriate level of compulsion, he is much more likely to understand compulsion when he is an adult and will therefore need less compulsion in the long run. But if we wait until a dog is older and then suddenly change the rules by adding compulsion, the dog will be much more likely to try to resist or escape the compulsion. This means that the dog will need higher levels of compulsion and with a higher frequency. Personally I find it much more effective for the training and fairer to the dog to start compulsion when young.

by Christopher Smith on 09 March 2009 - 07:03

Justcurious, you must be horse trainer! Thanks for answering my question.

I don’t disagree with your basic idea and think that it will work with a dog with a minor car chasing issue. I would do something very similar but also pair it with some type of negative for the car chasing.

by eichenluft on 09 March 2009 - 08:03

who cares if a 12 WEEK old puppy shows interest in "chasing cars" ?? At that age, they are only looking at movement - prey drive - shouldn't be off-leash around traffic anyway, so - walk the other way! redirect on a toy! Or, just ignore the behavior - who cares? Much too young to introduce anything but weenie-training foundation imprinting stuff. Not even a choke collar, certainly not a prong or e-collar - NO! BAD TRAINING!!

molly

by steve1 on 09 March 2009 - 08:03

THere are some good points as what should be done to these clever people if they can be called people, Shelley has the best one of all except i would try and double up on the collar on there balls. at least find a way to do so
Steve

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