oaken - Page 5

Actually, Joanna, when you submit an xray to OFA, you are agreeing that, if that dog receives OFA clearance and a number, that information will be published on their website. The option is to not publish the names of dogs that have failed. If a dog is not listed on the OFA site with a number, it doesn't have one.

Hi Joanna Good point re the OFA site. I believe the owner has to agree to have the dog's results published on their site. When you look at a SchH title, you do cannot see if the dog is just sleeve happy or not. The scores do not reveal that. You would have had to see the dog in person in order to determine that. There is a very distinct difference between a dog titled in the SchH sport and real life situations. The SchH sport simulates situations that a dog may encounter, but it will never be the real thing. I do believe though that any dog that will finish a SchH routine with a passing score and TSBa, regardless of how sleeve happy the dog may be, still displays good courage to be considered a worth while specimen. The dog after all has dealt with the person holding that sleeve during the trial. IMO SchH is a sport, and only that. A well recognized one, that many other breeds and mixed breeds participate in. Mixed breeds? Unpapered dogs? Then how can it be there just to determine breed worthiness? Nope, it is a standardized exam for any type of dog that is trained to participate in it. There are many other recognized entities that offer SchH/IP exams - DVG, FCI, separate breed clubs, etc. It is there to show that a dog can do the work. The SV determines breed worhiness upon a passing score (min of 70 in each phase, or 70,70,80 to be eligible for the KKL or advance to the next level), nothing more, nothing less. Breed worthiness is also determined by equivalents such as HGH, RH3, PSH, etc. The original thought was to determine that part of breed worthiness with a standardized test taken from the military. But as with everything else, evolution took over and made it what it is today, a sport. Give man a chance to test himself at something and he will make a spectacle of it :o). With the trend towards competition, the direction breeding took changed to give the competitors what they needed in order to succeed in the sport. Hence the split between working and show lines. It still does not make monsters out of SchH trained dogs, not back then and not today. :o)

I am just curious. If a breeder in the US conforms to AKC rules for breeding, should that not be enough? That is the US standard after all. The US does not have an SV standard, it has an AKC standard. And AKC rules of conduct when it comes to breeding. SV rules would be a voluntary option for a really rather small group of followers of the German bred GSD and the SV way of doing things, would it not? So why impose and criticize what the majority of US based breeders are doing? 46000+ GSD pups registered with AKC last year. How many of those do you think were bred according to SV rules? 10% maybe? And why do you feel so threatened by it? The AKC breeders must be doing something right if there is still a demand for their dogs and people like them, or else no one would buy them. Go ahead, let the worms out of the can ;o).

""The AKC breeders must be doing something right if there is still a demand for their dogs and people like them, or else no one would buy them."" I think there is a demand for their dogs not because they are doing something right, but because an average buyer is not aware. I think that a big portion of people who buy from such AKC breeders are not even aware of the SV and everything involved. Lets say I don’t know much about dogs, and am shopping for a pug today. Is there a pug SV? I have no clue! I would find a cute puppy with AKC papers – that’s it! Oh, and if there is a Chempion in the third generation? WOW, I'm getting a show potential! Most people have no idea about differences in GSD bloodlines, breeding programs, etc. More than that, even if they want to know more, they don’t even know where and how to start looking. They don’t know that there is more to GSD breeding than AKC papers, so they don’t even attempt to look for more!

many of those numbers of dogs were dumped because they didnt want to fix the health problems or deal with the temperment issues high selling numbers like any other place they figure the dog is replacable go buy another as folks on here say its a crap shoot many who get disapointed dump it and get another I cant speak for AKC vs SV neither can ever be 100 percent nothing is flawless I can however say I am about the dogs and what is best for them not here for the money I am not in business I am an enjoyer of the breed a watcher of the intelligence and beauty they keep me spellbound with. I will in that way do everything I can for the little bit I can save as many as I can and help other newbies get what they want not at the cost of being screwed by false advertisement and promises that they do not understand. How will they know to do the homework or how if it is not discussed for them to learn so that they get what they want and the pups are not disposed of? They need to learn just because a breeder has a gilded look does not mean they are breeding quality they need to have the tools of knowlege to know that it is perfectly ok to ask questions and demand proof of what the breeder claims and how to find that proof. Just because something is allowed like breeding at one year old in AKC that may be okay for fast maturing breeds to be bred at one but more likely at almost two rather than the day after they turn one does not mean it is desirable or even acceptable. would you like to buy a pup bred under a breeder who follows ethics harmful to a breed?

thank you Kennel von Lotta short and sweet much better way of my point we were typing same time lol!!!!!!

You said it Kennel von Lotta!!! I must admit I bought a few duds before I learned what I should about the breed. I had no clue!! When I bought my first GSD I didn't even know there was a difference between American and German bred! I just wanted to find a breeder who had a puppy ready to go now. Trial and error I guess. The average consumer doesn't know and most likely is not interested in learning, you start talking about titles and stuff and they cut you off saying "I just want a family pet", I don't breed, but I refer alot of people to decent breeders.

Kougar, I've disabled my e-mail link, the reason should be obvious. Thank you for the information I will be in touch with you.

D.H. - your initial assumption that there are AKC "Breeding Requirements" is incorrect. Other than minimal and maximum ages, and open registration, there are few requirements in either the AKC or the GSDCA for breeding quality. DNA is required for frequently used males, but not females. The AKC registration is merely a document outlining Owner, Producer [Breeder],Registration number [database listing of individual] and Origin of individual - Parent and their registration numbers. If other info like DNA or OFA is available, it is in their database adn also listed on the certificate of ownership. If you want to breed sire to daughter, dam to son, siblings or half sibling, there are no rules disallowing this. You can breed fearful, aggressive, horribly conformed, dysplastic dogs to each other. As long as you have that document from AKC with a number you can do a breeding to any other dog of the same breed with the same document. Unfortunately, in the perception of the general public, a newspaper advertisement that states AKC papers, seems to be an indication of some quality. We all know this is not true. The general public does not know. Therein lies the basic problem we have in the US. However, with the internet, a percentage of the general public now are trying to educate themselves before buying. German lines are being perceived IMO as superior to what many non GSD companion seeking buyers see when they go to an AKC show and see the "silly putty" version of the GSD popular in the ring. Some of the most extensive and sophisticated websites tout the poorest quality dog or the most commercial sellers who breed for the companion market. There are a very very small percentage of people in the US who honor the SV standards and try to follow the criteria of producing superior animals. Telling customers that schutzhund makes dogs crazy is cause for concern by those of us who care about the breed and the politically environment in the litigious US society. Trying to educate someone who is purely commercial is frustrating and not rewarding at all in this case.

Silbersee, et al. I can't even begin to tell all of you how delighted I am that I've provided you with such delicious amusement. It does my heart good to know that the high school spirit is alive and well in the GSD world. When I chose to refute the original post I expected some backlash, but I thought it would be better than conjecture.