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by Kreiger on 13 February 2010 - 01:02
Can any one of you experienced trainers/helpers explain how you get a dog to go from re-active to active aggression?
by ^dRiGoN^ on 13 February 2010 - 12:02
> Can any one of you experienced trainers/helpers explain how you get a dog to go from re-active to active aggression?
IMO, the biggest mistake helpers and handlers make is always bringing the dog out to the field with the helper in sight and allowing the helper to stimulate the dog into aggression/drive. From a young dog on, every time I bring my dog out to the field, the helper is hidden in the blind, in a bush, or behind something. I activate my dog by command and once he starts barking, the helper comes out of hiding. This allows the dog to think that he can initiate the fight and gives you active behavior. This is the first step for reinforcing an active behavior in young dogs.
With older, mature dogs I work the active aggression through conflict and pressing behaviors. Loading the drive, pressing the drive through control, then releasing the drive/frustration from the conflict of the control into the dog exploding towards the helper. This works very well but requires an understanding of drives and protection training from both the helper and the handler. Timing is very critical when working a dog in this situation. If you can find some old Helmut Raiser seminar videos on pressing and active aggression that would also be helpful. Raiser says it very well, "conflict is the attraction for active aggression."
Hope this helps.
Jason
IMO, the biggest mistake helpers and handlers make is always bringing the dog out to the field with the helper in sight and allowing the helper to stimulate the dog into aggression/drive. From a young dog on, every time I bring my dog out to the field, the helper is hidden in the blind, in a bush, or behind something. I activate my dog by command and once he starts barking, the helper comes out of hiding. This allows the dog to think that he can initiate the fight and gives you active behavior. This is the first step for reinforcing an active behavior in young dogs.
With older, mature dogs I work the active aggression through conflict and pressing behaviors. Loading the drive, pressing the drive through control, then releasing the drive/frustration from the conflict of the control into the dog exploding towards the helper. This works very well but requires an understanding of drives and protection training from both the helper and the handler. Timing is very critical when working a dog in this situation. If you can find some old Helmut Raiser seminar videos on pressing and active aggression that would also be helpful. Raiser says it very well, "conflict is the attraction for active aggression."
Hope this helps.
Jason
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 13:02
Good post Jason!!!
by VomMarischal on 13 February 2010 - 17:02
Jason, you're new but you sound like you know what you're talking about...I am going to ask our helper to adjust that method for my girl. She is one who screams bloody murder to get into the blind. Maybe that method will create more thinking and less hysteria.
by Kreiger on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
At this point though Jason are you not still activating the aggression by by playing peek a boo?Or is this what you do to get him to understand Pass Auf then later he will activate on his own I take it by knowing the command?Am I correct ?
by Slamdunc on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
kreiger,
I agree with Jason's method and we do a similar thing. For sport dogs we will have a hidden helper and the dog activates or "turns on" to elicit a response and the helper shows himself. From here we can go into prey or defense depending on the dog. We will use 2 blinds and work in between them. The dog has to have a "turn on" command like "pass auf" and learns to immediately activate or "turn on.' For the Police dogs it is done a little differently and I am not going into details on this forum regarding that training. The premise is similar only there is no prey, but serious defense.
I have learned that some things are not entirely comprehended here or they may be taken out of context. I will say that when decoying for the police dogs they must remain in total control and be calm when "turned off". I can approach, shake hands, ask directions, even touch the dog when the dog is "turned off". However. without agitation or even a look the handler can give the "turn on " command and the dog immediately engages with real rage. This work is done entirely with out equipment, no sleeves or suits. The dog must ignore sleeves to bite the decoy as a proofing exercise. The decoy is also a very real threat to the dog and the dog is intent on causing damage. We will use muzzles or post work for this. I come with in inches of the dog on post and have gotten bitten, I'm not as fast as I used to be. This is done in complete defense for the police dogs, frontal and very very close with no equipment. Then the dog must be turned off and calmed and can not show any aggression.
The muzzle work is really nice for me, because I don't get bit and I can pressure the dog and get very close before the dog is "activated" or turned on. The dogs will explode on command and the ones that get it are very impressive. Not all dogs can handle it or have the inner rage to do it. You must be careful training this.
Jim
I agree with Jason's method and we do a similar thing. For sport dogs we will have a hidden helper and the dog activates or "turns on" to elicit a response and the helper shows himself. From here we can go into prey or defense depending on the dog. We will use 2 blinds and work in between them. The dog has to have a "turn on" command like "pass auf" and learns to immediately activate or "turn on.' For the Police dogs it is done a little differently and I am not going into details on this forum regarding that training. The premise is similar only there is no prey, but serious defense.
I have learned that some things are not entirely comprehended here or they may be taken out of context. I will say that when decoying for the police dogs they must remain in total control and be calm when "turned off". I can approach, shake hands, ask directions, even touch the dog when the dog is "turned off". However. without agitation or even a look the handler can give the "turn on " command and the dog immediately engages with real rage. This work is done entirely with out equipment, no sleeves or suits. The dog must ignore sleeves to bite the decoy as a proofing exercise. The decoy is also a very real threat to the dog and the dog is intent on causing damage. We will use muzzles or post work for this. I come with in inches of the dog on post and have gotten bitten, I'm not as fast as I used to be. This is done in complete defense for the police dogs, frontal and very very close with no equipment. Then the dog must be turned off and calmed and can not show any aggression.
The muzzle work is really nice for me, because I don't get bit and I can pressure the dog and get very close before the dog is "activated" or turned on. The dogs will explode on command and the ones that get it are very impressive. Not all dogs can handle it or have the inner rage to do it. You must be careful training this.
Jim
by Slamdunc on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
VM,
Please post a link to your dog's pedigree. I'm curios. I also have a screamer. I learned I couldn't change it. The dog ahs incredible focus, you can step on her tail, pull her ears, pour water on her and she won't look away. But she screams as she is focused in OB.
Jim
Please post a link to your dog's pedigree. I'm curios. I also have a screamer. I learned I couldn't change it. The dog ahs incredible focus, you can step on her tail, pull her ears, pour water on her and she won't look away. But she screams as she is focused in OB.
Jim
by VomMarischal on 14 February 2010 - 01:02
by yoshy on 14 February 2010 - 01:02
Jim-
You mention turning the dog on while decoy/perp is still hidden. How are you getting the dog to alert towards them on command with no appearing threat ?or what are you doing to lead to that scenario?
lee
You mention turning the dog on while decoy/perp is still hidden. How are you getting the dog to alert towards them on command with no appearing threat ?or what are you doing to lead to that scenario?
lee
by VomMarischal on 14 February 2010 - 01:02
I went to a new club to train today and I feel a LOT happier. Instead of a non-correction, prey-drive model, it's more balanced (you can probably see from her pedigree that she's not wussy material). I am hopeful that the new club can either see her past her screaming fits or convince me that it just doesn't matter. I suspect that waaaay too much attention has been placed on that screaming thing when we should have just been ignoring it. I feel like I have been the one reacting to the conflict! Kind of a dumb thing to focus on...when she did her protection routine in a trial, she didn't have the chance to scream because it was so much quicker than the long drawn-out perfectionism of practice. So now I feel like who cares if she makes noise at practice. Well, right this minute I feel that way, anyhow.
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