Hill over Ursus? Your experiences? - Page 1

I have noticed quite a few breeders using Hill over Ursus lately with good results, particularly in regards to strong nerve. What exactly are the benefits and the history behind these lines going together? I did it myself just wanting to incorporate Hill by chance. What are the differences in structure, type, pigment, health, and temperment versus other Hill combos and Ursus combos. How would it compare to say, Baru over Ursus? What would be a good line to them put to said Hill/Ursus progeny for optimum results? Zamp?

What are the potential negatives?

Chris, Robin, Preston- I would particularly love to hear from you. I am a big fan of both of these dogs. I have seen Ursus line dogs deteriorate a bit in pigment and health in particular after several generations, and sometimes in nerves. What is your take on it? I've been out of the show scene for a few years and trying to catch up my research a bit.

BOTH HILL & URSUS ARE GOOD ANIMALS...HILL PRODUCES THE POWERFUL TOPLINE
& ESPECIALLY THE LENTH, LAY OF CROUP..URSUS GIVES THE STRONG BONES,COLOR,
HEAD,EXPRESSION,ETC..BOTH HAVE THE PRODUCING ABILITY IN COMMON...IN MY
PLACE THE N.O. OF HILL'S PROGENIES R MORE THAN URSUS....& LOT OF DUX DE CAUTRO
FLORES PROGENY  WHICH IS AGAIN A SON OF HILL FARBENSPIEL...

Ursus was one of the most beautiful, very close to the standard GSDs ever.  He produced some very good progeny overall and some with very good temperament.  Hill is reported to have produced a number of progeny withvery, very good temperament.  He has V1 Eros Luissenstrasse, the Youth Sieger close up in his pedigree and Eros persists in the pedigree of many GSDs when it appears close up.  Eros was a very hard dog that could work.  He could not be pushed  however and demanded respect.  He would stand up to anyone anytime and would not back down from a good fight (he was trained in Brevet and did very, very well).  Some of his progeny were a bit too aggressive if trained wrong, like V1 Lenon du val D'anzin, a very, very tough gangster dog who could be handler aggressive.  Not for a beginner was this top showdog who was a very good mover in the SV ring. So we know that Eros could add strength of temperament to a line. 

Hill supposedly has produced some showline dogs with very correct temperament.  Certainly his offspring look good and have nice appeal and do well in the show ring.  I guess that the primary consideration would be the choice of bitch used in order to evaluate which stud line would be better.  Both Ursus and Hill have quite a legacy for producing and there is no doubt about this.  Each has produced occasional progeny with very good correct working temperament.  Some of the top breed wardens and/or handlers in Germany have all the detailed knowledge you need to evaluate any future intended breedings (very few in this country do).  They might be willing to help one that asks them.  I would ask some of the German handlers who come to the SV type shows here.  Most are bi-lingual.

I have a four year old Dux de Cuatro Flores son out of an Ursus granddaughter.  In the "plus" department the dog hasn't been sick one day in his life and is very healthy and easy to maintain, is medium sized, has a decent gait, is very athletic and trots, runs and jumps very well, has very nice color, has been very trainable and is biddable, is very calm and stable in the house, is very social and outgoing in public, and loves little kids.

The negatives are he is a bit straighter behind than seems to be the judging preference these days, his upper arm is a bit short, he didn't get the big Ursus head, and he didn't show much interest in bitework when I brought him to the local Schutzhund club beginning at 8 months and continuing for the next year.  But that last seems to be a bit of an anomaly with the progeny of Dux de Cuatro Flores and the other prominent Hill sons, who seem overall to produce dogs that are significantly firmer in temperament than the showline norm.  

When you say "straighter behind", do you mean less rear angulation? I did a litter from a Hannibal son to a Jaguar daughter, neither dog overly extreme, and the progeny have less rear angulation than is preferred by some judges, which is a-ok with me.

 "When you say "straighter behind", do you mean less rear angulation?"

Yes, exactly. Quite a bit less rear angulation, actually.

In movement his hocks may not swing as far forward or back as a dog with more angulation is, but he isn't almost walking on them either.  And he is an excellent jumper - a little too good, as he recently figured out that he could scoot over the four-foot chain link fence that surrounds my property with no problem at all.  Time to lash a welded-wire extension with a 90-degree overhang! 

And Eros goes back to whoooo????......Mutz v P......nuff said!

As usual Gustav, you make your point well and once again show your deep knowledge of the GSD breed. 

Some have said Mutz was the greatest GSD overall in the history of the breed and that the fact he was owned by the SV President prevented him from being used more as he should have been.  Do you agree with this?  Can you recommend any stud dogs now that can produce fairly good conformation and correct temperament?

Preston, don't know how this dog produces yet, but he looks good in the videos.

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/546028.html

KC, sorry for the thread drift. What combination are you using to get Hill/Ursus. Did you use a dog here in the U.S.

Rik

I bred my Jaguar daughter to a Hannibal son two years ago, both residing in the US.  I just see more and more Hill over Ursus, (interestingly enough, not so much Ursus over Hill?) and was wondering what the specific reasons were behind this trend.  I do very much like the results, and I was curious as to what breeders will subsequently be breeding this combo to.