e-collar controversy - Page 10

Training a dog using 100% positive,or motivational methods sounds wonderful ,but is very unrealistic in the real world.Compulsive training  begins the day you put a collar on your pup and attach a leash to it. From that day forward the pup is controlled,no longer allowed to go and do as it pleases. I would like to see a dog that was trained from day one with no form of correction at any point in its life and is 100% reliable in all phases of the training.Some here say that an ecollar is used in a manner to help the unqualfied trainer or to futher a dog in training that is unsuitable for the venue,if this is true then wouldn't the use of a prong collar or choke collar be considered in the same light. Correction tools are just that, correction tools, the only difference being the way the correction is delivered. Some think a pinch is better then a nick and thats fine, each to his own.The same debate occured with the invention of the prong collar, and with the choke versus flat collar, each one seen as cruel compared to the previous. I'm not here to convince anyone that the ecollar is humane in it's use, in the wrong hands it is an instrument of pain,but the same can be said for the prong or choke collar if misused. As for as a dog being 100% realiable 100% percent of the time in all phases of training,I have yet to see a dog that performs perfect scoring routines 100% of the time. I will say that if use of the ecollar in training is so wrong, many of the trainers percieved to be the best in the world, including many wusv participants need to be advised that they are going about it all wrong and should seek the advise of those that are more knowedgeable.Steve1, if you're reading this, and I'm sure you are please take no personal offense, my words are spoken to every one interested in this thread and not directed at any individual.                                                                                                        Michael

I have not say that I am training dogs with 100% positive only.
As a matter of fact, now and then,  I am being accused  to be on the "stiffer" side. All I am saying is that you do not need to use e collar to train "COME"> "Come" was the question and my answer was related to come command only. I use negative elsewhere but not in come. That way I am able to establish leadership position elsewhere.
By the way; 
if you think that you must use for long distance training e collar, then the trainers before the e collar invention must have had dogs who would not come or work on long distance. Right?
I can assure you that this is a ridiculous statement as you probably know.
Also as I say proof is in the pudding. My dogs work on long distance  around distractions of all sorts and even so I have somewhere e collar I do not even know where it is for about last 3 years.
Prager Hans

Wolfinbok- Guess it is the Scotish in me that came up with the Lochness analogy.lol Nice that you had a dog that was like that.I had one but he had to go through a bit of training.He didn't have the temperament that cared for motivational training. He was bonded to me though and I took him everywhere. I could only be so lucky to find another dog like that.

Prager,I agree with what you are saying, with most dogs, but lets say you have a dog in your kennel that was not raised from  a pup in your kennel using your method to train the come command. This dog blows you off on the recall, what training method do you use at this point to proof the recall on this dog. Do you provide training services for civilian dog owners at your kennel, if so how do you train the come command on a 5-6 month old pup with no previous training? I'm not trying to offend you, I have nothing but respect for you, I'm just curious about how you achive this without the use of compulsive methods.                                                                                           Michael

Michael49.
every time police to whom I am selling dogs call me vendor I feel little animosity to that term> I consider myself breeder and trainer who loves to see his dogs work.
Yes I do train dogs. $ legs and tail. I'll train them all.
If you have 5-6 mo old pup then there is nothing much different from  6 weeks old pup. System is the same set up is little different.
First be patient. If the dog "blows you off" = do not care for you then, make him/her care fro you first. Nothing will happen if you do not have attention mainly willing attention, of the dog.

Her eis the jest of it.
First step is to isolate the dog in a kennel for a week. Feed him ,say come , water him, say come , clean his run, go away. Every time when you are coming to the run; say come. It takes 300x repetition for the conditioning to kick in and 3000 to be really imbeded. 3000 reps can be achieved in 10 weeks of thraining.
If the dog has a prey drive take a horse whip and tie a cotton sock to it and after a week in the isolation while the dog is in the kennel early in the morning whip the fabric back and forth in front of the kennel. When he starts to pay attention to it say "come" . And take him out. And go "fly fishing" for the dog . Whip the sock around and keep saying come. Let him win.= give him the contraption after a short fight. . And put him back in the kennel. Make it short and sweet. Next time put the whip on the ground and say come from 15 feet away let someone else open the kennel , keep saying come over and over again. Pick the whip from the ground and whip it around When the dog fights for it  play 30 seconds. Then put him up.
 Next day same thing, but this time real him in and grab the toy in your hand and play with him tug of war and let him win. Have another toy and if he plays keep away use second toy. Now you got  his attention.
You can then teach him out and all the other commands. Then use leash and for all the other commands you can use
pos x Neg.  Every command should be rewarded with play and correct with leash if not performed properly. But not for come. Come is always positive. Thus you can establish the leadership position through pos x neg in other commands. There when you are correcting the dog always say first NO!  And then correct with the leash.  Then if the dog is not coming you are using that same NO if necessary and then happy command. 
 Keep in mind that this is conditioning the dog into automatic response through conditioning. Dog is not making judgemt call. He commes because he is conditioned (automatically) and because he knows someting godd is going to happen when he does. That is why you must never foerce the dog to come.
This is a readers Dirgest version of Readers digest version of the actual technique. You must be patient this take time and trust. After these preparation take the dogs in the woods for hike be his friend , partner,  buddy. You will miss on that if you use e collar. JMO.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Michael49
How is it that you can send a dog away out of  your sight some 500 yds or more somtimes behind a ridge or hill to gather up sheep you cannot see the Dog he cannot see you but by signals and whistles you can get it tto gather the sheep and bring then back Now you do not use e collars to do that, So you only have the Dog and you nothing else, Now lets get doen to the truth of the Matrer i said if you bring up a Puppy from say 8 -9 weeks old if you need an e collar to bring it into line or as some say put a finer point on things as it matures to an adult then you the trainer handler has not done a vert good job
Now as i have said many times, in the 60 years of owning Dogs i have ONLY owned 8 -9 week old Puppies and bought them along to aduly hood and then worked them as i described
I have never bought in or owned a full or part grown dog of any breed so any dog i ever owned in all those years were trained and bought up by me, That is a big difference of bringing up a Pup then needing to use an e collar that getting a Full or part grown dog, not knowing really if it has any issues until you get to handle and know it then the tool used correctly may be of an assistance
Steve1

Prager, Steve1 thanks to both of you for your replies. Hans thanks for sharing your methods and the description of your tecnique. Steve is your method for training the come command for 8-9 week old puppies similar to what Hans describes, if not could you give more details about your method, I'm always open and interested in learning other peoples methods and techniques. Thanks again.                                                                              Michael

Prager-michael,

Im gonna steal your question and change it a little michael-

what happens when you get a client to come in that has a dog that has no strong motivators that you need to train his recall? food, prey, attention, are out the window.

i have always believed in the absence of a motivator you have to compel a dog with the use of compulsion. whether it be choke chain, ecollar, prong etc.... depending on the dog. 



take for ex: we had a whippet come in, that was a fear biter- with SA. the dog wouldn't take food for days, just enough water to survive, could care less about anything, and you put any pressure eon the dog and he would shut down.

so two ways i have worked the recall on dogs like this.

1) ecollar- long line. allow the dog to distract from handler- low level stim until dog redirects towards handler- then mark with good dog, continue process until dog returns all the way to handler.    work on finishing separately up close and personal and eventually mold the two behaviors together. by developing the relationship with handler and good things happen at handler while negative pressure happens away. i have been able to sustain a reliable recall with this on and off the ecollar. also when dog is on long line i have the ecollar backed with a choke chain so that in the absence of the collar information can be provided if necessary to not allow the dog to fail and or self reinforce negative behaviors.

2) choke chain- same principle as ecollar but slightly different. I like the koehler method for this.

However by ignoring the negative/fear behaviors- working them through it without condoning it and they come out of that shell in which you find an underlying motivator to cultivate a working relationship with once you peel away there issues that had overridden any of there motivators before. So in short you can cultivate a relationship with the dog that is both positive and negative to obtain result in a reasonable time table. which is what clients want. results are obtained at a much quicker pace and less aversive with the ecollar.


Now for the record- my personal working dogs are all trained traditionally. but my dogs all have strong motivators/ ie prey, food, my affection,my happiness with there performance, etc..... however i have learned from those whom developer service/assistance dogs, field retrievers etc...... to a extremely high degree of success with an ecollar. I think it is an invaluable tool. but i think if it is used it should be properly conditioned and used from start to finish with the dog. i have seen some use it successfully as an overlay tool but i wouldn't use it in that facet and i definitely wouldn't use it simply as a punitive tool.

now what separates the ecollar from using it the same ass those whom use a prong. I know and train with a guy whom has trained and titled more dogs in PSA than any other. he uses it as an overlay device. but his conditioning is much like Jim ha described previously. he times it with the prong and works them stim level up to finding where the reaction/redirect occurs. then uses it the same as he would the prong. such as when you give a down out of motion- most people give a preemptive/informative moderate stim with the command to make sure the dog succeed. so instead of the downward prong and leash- the dog can receive a tap from the ecollar and he maintains focus while in drive and if timed right that he must down.    

i know my description has wholes in it as i dont want to type a book. but i just throwing things out for people to discuss.

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Every dog is motivated by something. You must find what it is. If you are in a hurry of commercial training then use e collar if you want. I do not. I have not seen dog yet, where if you take time, will not respond to prey or food. E collar is a crutch, accelerator, but not a substitute for relationship based training. I use barking collars in some situations. I would use e collar for snake proofing or other avoidance training. I would not use it for obedience training. It was not necessary for 100s of years and it is not necessary now. Maybe I am Luddite. But traditional training because it takes longer makes for a better Dog x Men relationship. Yes people fail it, because they do not have the patience and knowledge and you may argue that then e collar is better then nothing. OK I'll go that far. But I am talking here about things being done properly, I am not talking about shortcuts regardless how necessary they may be.
Prager Hans