e-collar controversy - Page 11

If ecollar is a crutch then so is  tab, leash, long line, harness, pinch collar, fursaver, choke chain, etc..  I have not seen the ecollar described as an "accelerator" at least not amongst the people I know.  It is a great tool when used properly, like  leash, tab, pinch, fursaver, choke chain, long line, harness, etc..  I remember ecollars back in the 80s.  They were not near as refined or as precise as they are today. 

Again, on modern ecollars, most usually adjust  the setting so it is  the lowest that the dog can feel, indicated by a slight ear flicker,  or maybe a lip lick, or a look up at handler, not on a setting that evokes a pain response. We know it's not painful because we have done it to ourselves.  Everyone I know also has felt this on their own skin, it is a tapping sensation, similar to what if feels like to be flicked by someone's index finger. 

Sure there are people who use the ecollar because they are not capable of training any other way.  This is not the case with those who use it correctly.  I assure you of that.  Take a look at the majority of top German trainers, those who are consistly at the upper echelons of the sport.  If you think they are only successful because of the ecollar you will be mistaken.  If you think they only use the ecollar because they are inept without it you would wrong. 

I don't care if people don't want to use an ecollar, that's up to the individual.  But to describe the correct application and use of the collar as cruel or inhumane or somehow worse than a pinch collar is incorrect and merely myth perpetuation. 

Prager
Has said it all and there is not much to add to what he says, I will be getting a 8 week old Puppy next week. and very much as Prager says is what i do with Pups, The first thing i want is for the Pup to recognize me as its boss and the one to come to to be a bit soft to keep it safe, So to that end all my Pups for 60 years or so are fed by from my hand for the first two weeks they are with me, Nothing they get to eat is not from my hand then on in life i can put my hand in the feed bowl whist they are eating take some food out and i give it straight back to the Dog from my hand Each time i feed it i say Heree that is the call i use Then i commence in the Garden with the Pup on a line let it wander and call it tome Heree, It takes some time days weeks it makes no difference how long it takes, Then we play all of it is made a game. As it grows up the Call is automatic the Dog comes on that Call, Up to 10-11 months old i train with a flat leather collar, no other collar then i use a Prong just in case i have to give a correction for now we want the Pup to be as we say a little finer point to save a point or two like the correct position, When i want to get the Pup working off leash i hook it to my coat then i click the leash Catch and go through the routine i want the leash is very slack the Dog can move away if it wanted too but i can correct it instantly
 I can go on but thats how i work it Complete trust in me i want from the Dog For me a pinch collar is all the thing i need to give a correction If i need to resort to a ecollar after bringing the Pup up from 8 weeks old then i am a poor trainer
Obed in a Dog is everything for you cannot do anything with a Dog who is not so
Steve1

A pinch collar correction is much harsher than an ecollar correction.  But if that's all you can do, if you don't know how to use an ecollar properly or have the finesse and timing to use it correctly at least you recognize your limitations, and train accordingly.

Again before I have been answering a question how to train a dog "come" command if he blows you off or is far away and I was talking only positive with just "come" command.
However in other commands I am using mechanical collars.
Every time I correct the dog with leash and mechanical collar the dog sees me doing it. Yes I know that you can correct the dog with the leash and  at the same time to induce impulse in e collar so the dog understands that the e collar impulse  is coming from you. But eventually you stop that and use only the e collar. It is  not just the same as if every time the dog gets correction  he sees the trainer doing it. .
As far as German trainers go there is no difference in motivation of German trainers or US or Rwanda Burundi trainers. They want their dog to perform accurately in SchH in order to not just win but also to even compete against people who use such collars.  I am in no way disputing results with e collar being achieved easier and achieved in higher precision in performance faster (thus accelerator). But I  assure you the same is achievable without electronics and the man x dog relationship is infinitesimally better. I have seen trainers in era before the e collar and the dogs did just as well as they do now with the collar. But they have done it for the trainer and not for the impulse.
It was the challenge to communicate to the dog and with the dog and then find proper motivation for the dog to work for you well. 
   It is like helicopter skiing. Some people like to fly to the peak in 10 minutes and then ski down and go have a beer. I used to pack sometimes for 2  days and climb the mountain and then ski down and then have a beer. I assure you that at least I had more satisfaction, appreciation  and enjoy the skiing down  more then if i was whisked there with helicopter.  And I guess this is my point.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Pinch  collar corection is only as harsh as you make, it just like any other correction.
Prager Hans

very true hans.

i just have a couple questions. this is just for my edification and not "questioning you" persay.
and this is not debating ecollar. this is 100% me trying to gain knowledge.

1) with an olny positive "come" command. how do you train this so that if something is more compelling elsewhere that you retrieve 100% reliability? even with practicing 1000 times and setting the precidence of the recall you havent extenguished the dogs desires elsewhere of his surroundings to dictate he must come to you. which enters my second question to this part. if there is no consequence for refusal how do you retrieve reliability? if the dog relizes there is a consequence for failure to recall and there is contrast the desirable things come from handler and undesirable when i do not - wouldnt that produce a better relationship/reliability with the recall command? why would you disagree?

2) I have alway read, been taught, and trained in a facet that the correction should be as impersonal as possible. with exceptions of coarse. while working under pressure, correction, or any physical compulsion the handler should always remain nuetral and be as impersonal as possible with teaching. after proofing and deliberate disobedience occurs then personal deliberate correction should be implemented if situation dictates it but not in the learning phase. Would you agree or disagree and why?

Agreed, same as ecollar, the correction is as hard or as light as the handler decides. 

Prager I disagree that a dog eventually thinks the handler is no longer giving him the correction.  I have never seen a dog make that kind of leap in thinking.  Also no, you don't eventually stop all corrections except ecollar corrections.  It depends on what I am working on.  I use a fursaver on the dead ring to track my dog, and i can give him a very good correction with it.  I use pinch collar at times in OB and ecollar other times, sometimes no collar, sometimes just the ball and praise.   It all depends on what I am working on.   

Again, perhaps you are right if you are talking about training a dog from a pup with an ecollar, I don't know I have never done that, but since I have no first hand experience in that particular application of the ecollar I won't pass judgment on it or speak on it.  Or maybe if I used it at such a high level that it was a shock and not a tapping I would have a lesser bond, but since I don't use it that way, I can't say.

 I don't use an ecollar to train my dog, I train my dog using motivational methods as a pup and add compulsion and correction when the dog is old enough to handle it.  We  also don't put ecollars on puppies.  My current dog was more than 3 when introduced to it.   We use ecollars to fine tune, our dogs are not ecollar dependent, they are not robotic,  and I defy anyone to show me they have a better bond with their dog just because I use an ecollar to fine tune my dog.  This is the same arguement presented by cookie trainers.  They will  tell you that those who use any correction/compulsion/force whatsoever  with their dogs cannot possibly have the wonderful bond they share with their purley motivationally trained dogs.  You just can't make blanket statements like that, it's not logical and frankly does not hold water. 

Yoshi
in training
1.  Dog learns thing on level #1 then #2,#3,....
2. Then the quantity of conditioning and level of intensity  and quality of such conditioning
which you put the dog through during training and conditioning is working like a dam, if I may, and is slowing the dog,  if not stopping the dog,   to go backwards to lower levels while under stress or distraction.
 In other words dog which is on the training / conditioning level of #3 which is let say desirable behavior of "come" trained to respond under severe distraction, let say, of a very loud gun fire.  If the intensity, quality  and amount of the #3  training/conditioning  is not sufficient, then the dog will revert to #2 which is let say come well where there is far away  gunfire which is not as loud and stressful to the dog. When there then  dog does  not have enough of quantity,qullity  and intensity of conditioning in level #2 then the dog will go to level #1 which is level before the training .  In other words more pressure you put on the dog he is going to tend to revert to the lower and lower level#  of training. If the pressure is strong enough then the dog may be going to #0 which is and instinctual respond.
Now that said the quality, the strength , and the size (qualtity so to speak) of the "dam" which holds the dog from dropping to lower levels depends on quality, quantity and intensity of the training/conditioning. You can substitute one for the other (that is within certain acceptable norms) > In other words higher intensity could substitute for many repetitions of conditioning process. Electricity (even in minimal levels so called tapping) ) and lack of oxygen (also even  in minimal levels, but not used much in training of humane nature )  are two most intense  ways to condition a dog. Even minimal E impulse is much more intense then pretty hard correction on leash. Thus one of the main reasons for   the popularity of the e collar.
On the other hand large quantity  of lower intnesity  of quality motivational conditioning can override  stress of gun fire just as well as more intense  e impulse. Thus the damming effect of the level is a sum of these 3 factors of the training. Quality, Quantity and Intensity which are  to a certain level interchengable.

As far as impersonal application of negative correction goes; I do not totally  agree. It is the truth that during   such correction you should not feel any animosity or anger in your heart and you must quit the session if you do. But the correction must be done in naturally negative way which projecrs to the dog a threat and even anger. When saying "NO!" before negative physical correction. You must be using lower voice level then your normal voice level which to the dog in nature communicates recognition of growling which is learned in early age from the mother. Thus the dog reads this as a personal threat from a dominant pack member. You can condition this in other (non come) commands and then apply it to come commands when the dog does not respond. Since there it is not necessity to condition the dog's mind with special negative associated with every eventuality in the life.   Dog will understand what I mean when I say "NO!" in low growling voice, when he prefers to sniff to a cat shit rather then to respond to my "come" command even so I have not train him special correction using "NO!" for this eventuality. . It is not necessary to teach him NO! associated specificaly with  come command for him to understand it i

While we will most likely disagree until the cows come home on whether or not the ecollar is ever an appropriate tool in any circumstances, some think not, some think so,  I am sure we can all agree that if the  ecollar is used, it belongs only in very skilled hands, and is to be used very carefully.  It's not a tool for people to go out and buy when they are having problems with their pets.