e-collar controversy - Page 3

Again?

Could well be the ones who use an e collar are not capable of training a Dog the conventional way to any degree in proficiency
Steve1

Could be some of them are shitty trainers and some of them are great trainers, Steve.  Rest assured, the great trainers at the top are quite capable of training a dog without an ecollar, but why should they not use it?  It's just another tool.  The issue is if  you aren't  any good, you have no business using an ecollar.   Many great trainers use ecollars,  like your own friend Rinus.  

This thread needs Slamdunc.

Sue
I did not mention any names but what i say is true, my opinion you can have a Dog who has been trained improperly and if it has changed hands then if need then yes, an E Collar may be valuable asset, As regards Rinus you know more about him than i do for sure because he does not make a practice of using one in fact in the four years i have known him, never in my presence, But i guess you know him better than i do or because perhaps you saw him with a E collar on a dog he was working surmised he used them regular if so that is happens when people see a video or pic then get the wrong impressions and take it that is how it works
, But not when i am in his company he does not, But let me have your full name and i can ask him if you have met him and have watched  train dogs with an e collar
I will bet you 2000 dollars if we  can find out the points below
I will bet you that the E Collar is used more over in the USA on Dogs than it is in Europe and by at least 75% more
and why is that if  it is true
Does that mean by using them you Guys are better trainers and have better trained dogs than over in Europe  Somehow i think not, It would be interesting g to see if there is a survey done on the use of an e collar and which country used it most
I will bet the USA uses it more than any other country
Steve1

Steve I previously showed you videos of Rinus using an ecollar and you commented that yes,  in both the videos of OB and Prot, in fact that was an ecollar on the dog and a transmitter in Rinus' hand. 

I'm a little sick of some your snide comments such as "Could well be the ones who use an e collar are not capable of training a Dog the conventional way to any degree in proficiency" and "I will bet you that the E Collar is used more over in the USA on Dogs than it is in Europe and by at least 75% more and why is that if it is true".

First off, you don't know ANY of the great trainers in the USA so how hell would you know?   In fact I'll bet you that you don't know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to ecollars.  That's how you are.  If you aren't familiar with something you denigrate it, you look down your nose at methods and trainers  you know nothing about.  Just because you don't know that the overwhelming majority of  great trainers in Europe and the USA use ecollars to fine tune certain exercises sure as hell doesn't mean they don't use them, or that they use this method because they are unable to train dogs without ecollars, it simply  means you don't know about it. 

NOW BACK TO THE GREAT ECOLLAR DEBATE:

I am addressing those who use corrections in training and not the posititve only.  I believe that is a different topic.

Usually the ecollar is used on the lowest level possible to generate a response.  This means the reaction we are looking for is a slight lip lick, ear flick or turn, just a very small reaction, not a yelp of pain.  I have put the ecollar on my own skin at the level that generates this response from my dog  and  it is a tapping, not a painful stimulus, and CERTAINLY less painful than a strong pinch collar correction. 

When you give a correction, whether it's with a pinch, flat or fur saver,  you do NOT deliver the same strength/level  of correction every time, nor is the correction from the same direction every time, but with an ecollar you can give the exact same correction every time, it's very precise, and consistant.  Also the ecollar can be used at a lower level than a pinch collar correction to achieve the same result.

With an ecollar you  can work on certain exercises at a distance, from which you could not give a leash correction.

If a dog becomes ecollar wise then the ecollar was not used properly.

Like any tool this collar can be abused, like any tool when used properly it is a good tool.  Ecollar, fur savers, pinch collars, flat collars, harnesses, long lines, short leashes, tabs, etc., all have their place.  Not all tools are appropriate for all dogs, just as not all owners are capable of using all tools appropriately. 

There are four reinforcers in operant conditioning.
Positive, negative, aversive, and intermittent.

There are three basic stages in dog training.

First is the rough cut, or setting the foundation.

Second is the over lay stage to tasks needed.

Third is the fine tuning stage.

If you practice a mess, it just gets worse.
So Start with a rock solid foundation and than
go to the next level.