e-collar controversy - Page 4

Wolf,

Well sell said and with me the ET comes in the late 2nd (maybe) or in the 3rd to fine tune when off lead.  Simply because when off lead I only have my voice or hand signals.

Please keep in might - I believe strongly in conditioning, conditioning and More conditioning of the dog wearing the ET before I ever turn it on.  (They must never figure out the stimulation is coming from the collar) They must believe it comes from my voice or signals.

I've seen dogs that are wild as apes until an ET collar is put on them them they obey.  Take it off they go back to crap - THOSE DOGS ARE NOT TRAINED.

TUFF

Yesterday on "the dog whisper" he used an ecollar to assist in working with a dog aggressive sharpia (sp,sorry). I find that very wrong, showing the general  public the use of one to correct a possible dog fight about to begin, without the information that this could also CAUSE a dog fight without proper use by a trained PRO. To me this was the most irresponsible episode I have seen. This training tool should not be sold the the General Public, you should be only able to purchase thru a trainer who is teaching you how to use correctly. These can do more harm in training than good in the wrong hands.

Sue
Get off your high horse
never have you particular showed me any  such video, You may have put one on the forum but not specially for me
and too bad you are sick of this and that of what other write
You know what lady as you are the all time training expert you think you are by the way you write, then Perhaps we can have a Sueincc part of the forum and you can enlighten us all on your expertise you would be arrogant enough to do it as well
 You have a bloody cheek saying how sick you are of a one line post and it had no double meaning but straight to the point and it meant what it said. Do we have to get conformation from you before we reply to get your blessing it is okay to say anything without you being sick over it
It has hit a raw nerve with you i guess and you need that little tool to control your dogs
and to your snide remark i bet i know nothing about E Collars Wrong
I know about them but i do not use one and never have
I did not bring up and train two 8 week old Pups to become very good Workers to win 20 first prizes in Sheep herding competitions i did not use an e collar to help train Dogs for the Blind Folk, and i do not use e collars to train the Pups in the Sch Sport
i leave those tools to you to aid yourself in training the dog to do what you want them too
My present Pup was trained up to over 10 months old with a Chain and Leather collar on her,
now i want that little more from her i use a Pinch collar but in the short time i have had it on her i guess i have corrected her no more than 3 or 4 times and she was at 10 months old very nearly ready for the BH, just to get her long down right off leash and all was right., I  Did not need a E collar to do it, nor will i need one to get her titles
You slate everyone on this forum if they do not agree with what you say or think, as far as i know you know absolutely squat about training dogs and i would not necessary believe what you say anyway
As for Rinus using an e collar, on a Dog, i guess because you saw it once you think he uses them regular wrong again he does not as i said not in the time i have known him
Finally with what i said about e collars and there use in the USA as they are in Europe that too hit a nerve with you so i guess i am right  in what i said however i always like to get it right and i will find out
and again how well do you know Rinus and how long have you seen him train in real life, answer or stop making false comments on things you really do not know, you are becoming a bore with your outbursts typical screaming, But this Guy is not impressed Did the people decades ago need  E Collars to train there dogs No they did okay then so why now,
I would love to put one round your neck on some of your posts then give you a little nick when you say it wrongly i guess by the end of a session i would know exactly what strength of correction to give you at the moment it would have to be on full power,

You are exactly right as to the fact that a handler or animal dominant/aggressive dog that is overstimulated with an ecollar can become so stimulated that that  "explode" in rage because something has just hurt them.

They will in tum potently attack the nearest object of threat whether - human (adult or child), dog, cat, horse, etc.

I have seen this same behavior from a dominate/aggressive male GSD (Sch3) who had a prong collar on and the handler jerked on the leash a couple of times.  This over-stimulated the dog and he turned on the handled causing serious wounds. 

This is why ecollars (Electric Trainers as I call them) need to be used correctly.

TUFF

 

Wow, one word for you Steve:  GINKOBILOBA

And you can take your self righteous bullshit and shove it where the sun doesn't shine because your own words come back to bite you:

from this February 2009  thread: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/275318.html?pagen=6#276880

sueincc
 
Steve1 you said:
"In fact in the two clubs i go to three times a week, No one uses an E Collar, they take too much pride in what they do, Of course there are some dogs which take a lot of handling But if worked right they can be okay without being shocked"

Don't you train with Rinus Daelenberghutte?  http://www.daelenberghutte.be/zaskp.htm
 
Your statement confuses me because if you click on the obedience video and both protection videos for the dog Zasko, you can clearly see the ecollar on the dog (not the fur saver, but the ecollar buckled just behind the ears) and the transmitter in the hand (not the leash, but the transmitter and it's antenna). Perhaps they do not allow e-collars at club but they most definitely train their own dogs with them and why not? E collars are an excellent tool!

Your response:

Sueincc
Yes, I see Zasko has a Collar on the Obed, and maybe on one of the Protection Videos, I think this was in the early days of having him in fact i know this to be correct, and he did seem you have it on there, and Yes, that is at one of my Clubs, But not at a club Training day
Rinus and Eric are training privatly in that Video
And I have not seen Zasko with a collar on at the usual club Training, but again saying that, Zasko rarely attends a Club Training day only on the odd occasion,
He trains along with the Pakwerker and sometimes me and my brother join them for a private training session
Goran is the son of Zasko
And Yes, again the E collar is a good tool but only if used right, but some do abuse it that is certain but used correct it is a good aid, much better i think than a chain collar, I am not against them but people must use them for the right reasons, not for force
Steve

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And yep, Steve, anytime someone like you gets self righteous, passes judgement,  and makes snide remarks about extremely accomplished trainers who have done more with their dogs than you will ever dream of, just because one of the tools they use is something you yourself have no experience with whatsoever, it hits a nerve and I will call you out on your bullshit every damn time.   But you know what?  Keep it up, you just make yourself look like a fool.  Make no mistake about it, Zasko had an ecollar on in all 3 of those videos,  so put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Oh and another thing.  Ecollars have been around for many, many years and used quite proficiently and commonly by bird dog trainers, retrievers and hunters, the world over.  But guess who taught the Americans how to use the e-collar for schutzhund?  The German masters.  Guess who told us about double boxes?  Same guys.

Why don't you go tell them how they must be such horrible trainers to use the ecollar?  I'm sure they will love to get your advise on how they can improve their training.  After all, you think you know it all, so go give them your opinion about how they must not be near as good trainers as the likes of you, since you don't use an ecollar like they do. Except one thing, if you bothered learning about it you would understand they are not used on young dogs like yours, they are for FINE TUNING at higher levels, titled dogs,  not preparing a puppy for her  BH.

Sueincc
That may be so but i was not in attendance in that Video, I have never seen him use an e collar since i have been training with him that i have said for the last time, My post was a normal one and said only those which need to use an e collar are probably not proficient in training a dog the normal way, meaning if you have to rely on an e collar to train the bloody dog then you yourself are trained only to use the e collar because it means you are incapable of training a dog by the conventional methods used before WW11 etc,  did they use e collars no they did not,  but i guess those people and us Guys who do not use an e collars are classed as dummies at training dogs by the likes of yourself Do not flatter yourself Lady well i will re phase that you had better for no one else will
It is the Bull Shit coming from you again lady that ruins good threads and you have done it to several people and to several threads in the past, However this is one person you will not put down, You take big but i do wonder when you defend a product so much when nothing negative has been said about it, It shows up your own inferiority on Dog Training as a whole
Your manner and the way you react to things which get to the core and the truth hurts you even though they are not aimed at you, perhaps you feel a little inadequate without the use of an e collar to use on your dogs training, I do not intend to ruin this thread arguing with you so carry on Guys, My one line post did only bother one person Sueincc no one else for they understood the meaning of it
And as i said i am not against e collars but not used as a tool to train a dog just on its own That is not for me at all, and there is no fun in that and it does not tell you the person training the dog if you are capable of doing it should you adopt the normal practise of training
Steve1

Perhaps you just don't understand the difference between fine tuning and training. Either way, the fact of the matter is you are cutting down people you don't know with skills and accomplishments that far exceed your own, who are using a tool you have no experience with.  You don't like the way I tell you this, tough.

Sueincc
Carry on Using your E Collar if you cannot make do without it, For what you are saying that if a person does not use one then you cannot get that Dog to perform up to its true potential, and to fine tune the dog you must use an e collar for the conventional way of man relating to his dog is not up to it, again that is saying that years ago before the e collar was invented then  man never had true control of his Dog at a high degree,
That means that every one who say for instance hypothtically takes a dog to the WUSV and does well uses an e collar to some degree on his dogs training To get that top performance from his Dog
that i do not believe at all there is no other way of putting it.
Me i will carry on without one, for it is me who is training and handling the dog not a twing of electric, Then if i do okay i can say yes, we did it together with some hard work, If we do not, then i will say to myself you are a poor trainer and you have failed the Dog, and if i have to then resort to using an e collar to get a better reaction from the Dog and i get a better result from the Dog,  then i am still the poor trainer for i will have failed for i was not capable of doing it the conventional way and that to me is bringing a pup up from weaning training it and getting titles or if you want another venue of work for the dog doing it yourself
For me i have to do everything on my own ability using what i was born with, no other way in anything is acceptable to me
If i have not got it in me then so be it then i fail
Now it is time for bed have to be up at 4 oclock in the morning to go to a Trial
Steve1