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by Lief on 04 May 2010 - 22:05
and you cannot count on every dog to have drive not to mention if they are scary strong, no amount of jerking works
by Lief on 04 May 2010 - 22:05
this kinda shows how the nick can replace the choke chain...this is the last video I promise......................
by Prager on 05 May 2010 - 15:05
No e collar is necessary and relationsip with the dog is supperb.
Training as I explained it above is not based on "judgment call" of the dog , but it is based on conditioning. (Pavlov) . In this case Operant conditioning .
Example: If you are driving a car you are not making judgment call if to hit brakes when something is in front of your car. You have done it many times. You are thus conditioned to brake without judgment call. It becomes reflex based on stimulus. You know then when you sit on passenger side of the the car and are still braking even so there is no brake pedal. Thus there is no judgment call at all. It is result of conditioning. Operant conditioning can be positive and negative. For "come" command I prefer none equipment positive reinforcement conditioning. ...as described in my former post. E collar is not necessary to teach this or to perfect it. I can show you dogs trained that way. Any time I call them they run full bore 100% of ability for their speed. Anybody is welcomed to come and see. I am not going to send you a video though. Maybe I should sell some.... :)
Prager Hans
Training as I explained it above is not based on "judgment call" of the dog , but it is based on conditioning. (Pavlov) . In this case Operant conditioning .
Example: If you are driving a car you are not making judgment call if to hit brakes when something is in front of your car. You have done it many times. You are thus conditioned to brake without judgment call. It becomes reflex based on stimulus. You know then when you sit on passenger side of the the car and are still braking even so there is no brake pedal. Thus there is no judgment call at all. It is result of conditioning. Operant conditioning can be positive and negative. For "come" command I prefer none equipment positive reinforcement conditioning. ...as described in my former post. E collar is not necessary to teach this or to perfect it. I can show you dogs trained that way. Any time I call them they run full bore 100% of ability for their speed. Anybody is welcomed to come and see. I am not going to send you a video though. Maybe I should sell some.... :)
Prager Hans
by Doberdoodle on 05 May 2010 - 18:05
Doing your positive reinforcement to teach come when called is great, but what happens when other things in the dogs world are more reinforcing than what you have to offer? Say, a bitch in heat, a rabbit, or whatever.
What happens is when you DON'T stop for a red light, you get a ticket. There is always a consequence both good or bad, depending on your actions. If people got a ticket EVERY TIME they ran a red light, there would be less people running them than there is now where you only "might" get caught. That is consistency of correction, if you are corrected every time you are going to be conditioned to stop when you're supposed to because the cost (ticket) is greater than the reward (getting to speed through).
What happens is when you DON'T stop for a red light, you get a ticket. There is always a consequence both good or bad, depending on your actions. If people got a ticket EVERY TIME they ran a red light, there would be less people running them than there is now where you only "might" get caught. That is consistency of correction, if you are corrected every time you are going to be conditioned to stop when you're supposed to because the cost (ticket) is greater than the reward (getting to speed through).
by Wolfinbok on 05 May 2010 - 20:05
Prager,
Pavlov is known for " reflex conditioning" which is not to say,
a good place to start, because behaviorism came out of his
beginnings. Now fast forward to 1950's BF Skinner and
operant conditioning. Skinner was a Behavior scientist,
and studied condition response. He isolated the groups
of reinforcers which is what made him famous. Today the
biggest behaviorist in this area Is Ivar lovaas, from UCLA. To better
understand the E- collar think terms of adverse , positive,
negative, and intermittent reinforcement. And simply apply
that to your training methods. Oh and a PHD would not
hurt. Or a good training seminar.
by VonIsengard on 05 May 2010 - 21:05
Doberdoodle- I would say if the dog is so easily distracted then the training is not yet sufficient enough for the dog be far enough away off lead to run off. I proof every distraction under the sun on lead, and it is then a non issue off lead. I am not against e-collars, like a prong, they are in valuable tool in the right circumstances for the right reasons. But I do not agree with those that would say you cannot get a dog reliable without one.
by Doberdoodle on 06 May 2010 - 03:05
I did not mean just with the e-collar. I am not always a fan of how they're used and how often, but I'm against any tool, either. But I am wondering what you think-- How many dogs can be totally reliable with NO form of correction or aversive (verbal, physical)? Because even pulling the leash with a flat collar is using "force." Can you train a dog using 100% positive?
by LAVK-9 on 06 May 2010 - 04:05
Can you train a dog using 100% positive?
It's like the Lochness Monster....I have heard of it but never seen it.
It's like the Lochness Monster....I have heard of it but never seen it.
by Doberdoodle on 06 May 2010 - 05:05
LOL!!!
listen to this, I used to work with a PP trainer, they would tell people how punishment was wrong and you should train only by reward, no correction, no touching the dog, it was all lure/reward training....... but sometimes the trainer would secretly put pinch collars on dogs during board and trains, then would pass it off as purely positive and clicker trained. Very shady stuff. I did not like it simply for the dishonesty of it. Plus I'm sure any effect would wear off once the dog realizes the owner doesn't have that means to correct, but it probably helped the dog appear trained at first. How does one know that someone who has trained and titled their dog has really used no aversives?
fyi, PP= purely postitive
listen to this, I used to work with a PP trainer, they would tell people how punishment was wrong and you should train only by reward, no correction, no touching the dog, it was all lure/reward training....... but sometimes the trainer would secretly put pinch collars on dogs during board and trains, then would pass it off as purely positive and clicker trained. Very shady stuff. I did not like it simply for the dishonesty of it. Plus I'm sure any effect would wear off once the dog realizes the owner doesn't have that means to correct, but it probably helped the dog appear trained at first. How does one know that someone who has trained and titled their dog has really used no aversives?
fyi, PP= purely postitive
by steve1 on 06 May 2010 - 06:05
I am going to come into here again, What some of you are saying is that it is not possible to train a dog to a high standard without the use of an e collar, That is total rubbish if anyone thinks that,
I do not ever go into fancy words when i say anything it is what it is, Now you guys tell me this, I trained two Puppies to grow up to use in Sheep herding Competitions these two Pups were trained by voice and a whistle, only nothing else Oh, perhaps with some hand signals as well, Now how did those two dogs which i may add are taking a bunch of sheep through obstacles away from me by some distance out of sight some of the time then through other obstacles back and into a pen etc to start you had to send the Dog away out of sight of you the handler to where the sheep were grazing that was a start
No e collar was used no Prong collar was used, so how was it done or i sould say trained, I will not tell you how i did it or how other even with more class and better dogs and people than i had did it, there are so many experts on here they can tell you should you want to know
But those two little 8 week old Pups won around 20 competitions between them, How do we train Young Dogs to be used for the Blind Folk, certainly not with e collars at least not back in the few years i helped sometime back,
I do not say that e collars do not have a place but to me a very small place in the Dog training world, Certainly not if you have an 8 week old Puppy and you bring it up yourself, let us say to train it for the ScHh sport, now if that Pup grows on and in time you decide that you need an e collar to train it, Then you the one who bought the Pup up is a poor trainer and owner period, for what good things you instill into that Pup at a young age will remain with it later in life
It it turns out that the Pup is not up to the standard you want for the ScHh sport then that is it there are many such Pups about they do not all adapt or go forwards to do themselves justice they simply do not have it in them and no amount of training can change it certainly not by using an e collar on it
and that also comes down to the finer points of training, IT is done from the Beginning IT is not sometimg you have to force a dog to do later in life after it has been trained, and i do not believe the use of an e collar will correct the mistakes made in its training by a poor handler
Overall it comes down to us Humans
NO ONE ever says they are a crap trainer, It is always the DOG who is in need of correction that is Pure Crap
IT is the other way round they are more better DOGS than there is HUMAN TRAINERS of Dogs and that is the truth of it and again what some are saying that if a dog is way from the handler off leash and does not come when called as Prager says it should come when called, if it does not then it has been poorly trained for i think you are talking about a full grown dog here with a few years of training in it, if you have not got it right by then it is you the Trainer who needs the ecollar on his or her neck not the Dog
Now i know most if not all of you posting will agree with what i say and dismiss it as Drivel , Thats okay, i do not need to be taken seriously in what i know about dogs, I listen to what you experts say about it and i think to myself
Oh Well, its a sign of the times
Steve1
I do not ever go into fancy words when i say anything it is what it is, Now you guys tell me this, I trained two Puppies to grow up to use in Sheep herding Competitions these two Pups were trained by voice and a whistle, only nothing else Oh, perhaps with some hand signals as well, Now how did those two dogs which i may add are taking a bunch of sheep through obstacles away from me by some distance out of sight some of the time then through other obstacles back and into a pen etc to start you had to send the Dog away out of sight of you the handler to where the sheep were grazing that was a start
No e collar was used no Prong collar was used, so how was it done or i sould say trained, I will not tell you how i did it or how other even with more class and better dogs and people than i had did it, there are so many experts on here they can tell you should you want to know
But those two little 8 week old Pups won around 20 competitions between them, How do we train Young Dogs to be used for the Blind Folk, certainly not with e collars at least not back in the few years i helped sometime back,
I do not say that e collars do not have a place but to me a very small place in the Dog training world, Certainly not if you have an 8 week old Puppy and you bring it up yourself, let us say to train it for the ScHh sport, now if that Pup grows on and in time you decide that you need an e collar to train it, Then you the one who bought the Pup up is a poor trainer and owner period, for what good things you instill into that Pup at a young age will remain with it later in life
It it turns out that the Pup is not up to the standard you want for the ScHh sport then that is it there are many such Pups about they do not all adapt or go forwards to do themselves justice they simply do not have it in them and no amount of training can change it certainly not by using an e collar on it
and that also comes down to the finer points of training, IT is done from the Beginning IT is not sometimg you have to force a dog to do later in life after it has been trained, and i do not believe the use of an e collar will correct the mistakes made in its training by a poor handler
Overall it comes down to us Humans
NO ONE ever says they are a crap trainer, It is always the DOG who is in need of correction that is Pure Crap
IT is the other way round they are more better DOGS than there is HUMAN TRAINERS of Dogs and that is the truth of it and again what some are saying that if a dog is way from the handler off leash and does not come when called as Prager says it should come when called, if it does not then it has been poorly trained for i think you are talking about a full grown dog here with a few years of training in it, if you have not got it right by then it is you the Trainer who needs the ecollar on his or her neck not the Dog
Now i know most if not all of you posting will agree with what i say and dismiss it as Drivel , Thats okay, i do not need to be taken seriously in what i know about dogs, I listen to what you experts say about it and i think to myself
Oh Well, its a sign of the times
Steve1
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