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by starrchar on 29 May 2010 - 15:05
Wrestleman,
I fairly certain you won't meet anyone at your club that has bred their dog to a Shiloh. Schutzhund people are usuually very dedicated to the breed and wouldn't do something like that. BUT, there are sliver breeders (those who own "Shilohs" who have broken off from Tina and her breeding program) who are breeding their dogs to German Shepherds in order to expand the gene pool because they can no longer breed to Tina's dogs. You may not know anyone who has done this, but it doesn't mean it isn't true. This is a fact.
I fairly certain you won't meet anyone at your club that has bred their dog to a Shiloh. Schutzhund people are usuually very dedicated to the breed and wouldn't do something like that. BUT, there are sliver breeders (those who own "Shilohs" who have broken off from Tina and her breeding program) who are breeding their dogs to German Shepherds in order to expand the gene pool because they can no longer breed to Tina's dogs. You may not know anyone who has done this, but it doesn't mean it isn't true. This is a fact.
by Mystere on 29 May 2010 - 16:05
...and if they sell those crosses as shilohs, why would anyone, other than Tina Barber, care? Tina came here, apparently hoping to engender outrage from gsd-folks that these crosses were sold as "her" breed and was/is disappointed that we didn't care. As long as these independent shiloh-breeders don't market their products as gsds or "old style" gsds, I reallycould care very little less. I do, however, understand that Barber and her followers do care very much. As said here repeatedly: to each his own.
by michael49 on 29 May 2010 - 17:05
Prager, Tina I'm not bashing or criticizing the Shiloh in any way, as a matter of fact I think they are beautiful animals and have there place in the dog world. If you read what I said and think about it , it should make sense to you. Prager,you stated Tina owns the trademark to the Shiloh breed that may well be, but what can she do to prevent other people from breeding them to whatever they please. She can refuse to register them, that's about all that can be done. Prager , all I'm saying is none of us have any control over what other people do when it comes to breeding dogs. I understand Tina's concern with what's happening with her breed, but the developers of all purebred dogs have faced the same problems that Tina is facing and I don't know of anyone that was succesfull in preventing it, do you? As I said before the only way to prevent it is to persuade the people doing it to stop, good luck with that, it will be a true milestone if accomplished. Prager, no offense taken with your spelling lesson, but reading some of your posts and the spelling contained in them, you would have been the last person I would have expected that from. Tina, I wish I could provide help with you cause, but I don't breed any gsd's to Shiloh's and don't know anyone that does,so I'm afraid I for one can't help you. Michael
by Uglydog on 29 May 2010 - 19:05
The GSD of Old, was the dog Max created.
He worked so hard to avoid having charlots like Tina in their whims, seek to redesign the breed into something it was never intended to be. (Im thankful that she at least renamed it, but think it was done to stand aprt and self congratulate)
This is exactly WHY the GSDs of old had Mandatory BREEDING Working Certifications!
SchH has evolved into a Sport, FROM a Breeding certification.
If one wants to see the GSDs of old, you can see them on Youtube at the 1936/1937 SchH cert breed tests.
They were on bite suits, performing high jumps, broad jumps, real gun fire, real stick hits and other scenarios completely foreign to the modern sport of Schutzhund today.
'When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers -, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such.
There again, we encounter another danger for the race. The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers.
The buyer, however, is mostly an unsuspecting novice, or else one who knows or cares nothing for the weal or woe of the race as yet. He knows nothing of racial type, nothing of the value of aptitude for work, he often only has an eye for appearances and wishes his dog to be imposing and remarkable, and sometimes even a ruffling swashbuckler.'
-MAX
He worked so hard to avoid having charlots like Tina in their whims, seek to redesign the breed into something it was never intended to be. (Im thankful that she at least renamed it, but think it was done to stand aprt and self congratulate)
This is exactly WHY the GSDs of old had Mandatory BREEDING Working Certifications!
SchH has evolved into a Sport, FROM a Breeding certification.
If one wants to see the GSDs of old, you can see them on Youtube at the 1936/1937 SchH cert breed tests.
They were on bite suits, performing high jumps, broad jumps, real gun fire, real stick hits and other scenarios completely foreign to the modern sport of Schutzhund today.
'When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers -, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such.
There again, we encounter another danger for the race. The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers.
The buyer, however, is mostly an unsuspecting novice, or else one who knows or cares nothing for the weal or woe of the race as yet. He knows nothing of racial type, nothing of the value of aptitude for work, he often only has an eye for appearances and wishes his dog to be imposing and remarkable, and sometimes even a ruffling swashbuckler.'
-MAX
by wrestleman on 29 May 2010 - 19:05
Wanna see some goo old dogs look at some old videos of German Shepherds in KNPV in the 70's and 80's as well as the police dogs that are on line with real bite videos. Those to me are the old style German Shepherds.
Schutzhund is a sport so WHAT.. so is obedience , flyball, etc. It is still a good breed worthy test.. That no Shiloh is capable of. Is it the best test no probably not. Belgium ring probably would be.
Want to see a good test of a dog watch some of those old videos of Belgium Ring training.
Sell what you will Miss Tina..but if what you are producing was the dogs of your youth then you had malamute crossed dogs as a youth not German Shepherds. Look at pics both here and in Germany of Shepherds from the 60's through today and you will not see anything that looks like the dogs you are advertising now on your site..
Good day and great training to all and remember our troops as we train this weekend..... May your bites be full and hard and your dog track with the deepest nose possible..............
by starrchar on 29 May 2010 - 20:05
From Mystere: "...and if they sell those crosses as shilohs, why would anyone, other than Tina Barber, care?"
That is a good question.
I am going to do my best to explain this, although I know Sunsilver could do a much better job than me. From I understand the result of the sliver breeders indisciminately breeding to GSDs is resulting in smaller dogs that don't have the temperament and qualities Tina and the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd breeders are trying so hard to develop, yet these dogs are still being called Shilohs. I can certainly understand why this would be upsetting. Although many here don't believe it, Tina takes a TREMENDOUS amount of care selecting her breeding pairs based on 30+ years of data. She goes back for MANY generations, studying structure, temperament, health etc. to produce the best litters possible. Not only are sliver breeders not doing the same thing, they are breeding to GSDs, which from what I understand is resulting in dogs that are quite different from the Shiloh Breed standard... yet they are still being called Shilohs, which creates much confusion for the average person. So... that is why the slivers breeding their Shilohs to GSDs is upsetting. I hope this makes some sense. If not, I'll give it another try!
That is a good question.
I am going to do my best to explain this, although I know Sunsilver could do a much better job than me. From I understand the result of the sliver breeders indisciminately breeding to GSDs is resulting in smaller dogs that don't have the temperament and qualities Tina and the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd breeders are trying so hard to develop, yet these dogs are still being called Shilohs. I can certainly understand why this would be upsetting. Although many here don't believe it, Tina takes a TREMENDOUS amount of care selecting her breeding pairs based on 30+ years of data. She goes back for MANY generations, studying structure, temperament, health etc. to produce the best litters possible. Not only are sliver breeders not doing the same thing, they are breeding to GSDs, which from what I understand is resulting in dogs that are quite different from the Shiloh Breed standard... yet they are still being called Shilohs, which creates much confusion for the average person. So... that is why the slivers breeding their Shilohs to GSDs is upsetting. I hope this makes some sense. If not, I'll give it another try!
by tempa on 29 May 2010 - 22:05
Starrcher a lot of her Shilohs dont look like shilohs at all some look like the lobo dogs but she calls them shilohs?Some just look like over grown GSD .
Now she is fixed on size get them bigger how much bigger are they to become?
I have a "other side shiloh she is 2nd generation Czech out cross and looks more like on of her old line Shilohs then i have seen on both sides.She is loving protective everything BF is wanting in her breed.
I would love to get one from Tinas breedings to see the diffrends for my self she is so set on ..but since my shiloh is from the "other side" that will never happen.
I dont care about her war with the other side.I like to make up my own mind about something and not be told what to do or where to get my dog from.
One thing i agree with is the "other side is breeding to much GSD in to there dogs but there are breeders out there trying to save what they have left.
Now she is fixed on size get them bigger how much bigger are they to become?
I have a "other side shiloh she is 2nd generation Czech out cross and looks more like on of her old line Shilohs then i have seen on both sides.She is loving protective everything BF is wanting in her breed.
I would love to get one from Tinas breedings to see the diffrends for my self she is so set on ..but since my shiloh is from the "other side" that will never happen.
I dont care about her war with the other side.I like to make up my own mind about something and not be told what to do or where to get my dog from.
One thing i agree with is the "other side is breeding to much GSD in to there dogs but there are breeders out there trying to save what they have left.
by VomMarischal on 30 May 2010 - 00:05
From the FAQ: http://www.shilohshepherds.com/realQuestionsHonestAnswersFromTheShilohShepherdBreedFounder.htm
"If I purchase a non-ISSR puppy that consists of a cross between an unregistrable "shiloh" and a GSD, what can I call it?"
DUH! A mutt! But Tina says,
You could call the progeny King Shepherds (a rare breed listed with ARBA) IF they let you, OR you could call them long haired GSD's ... although you probably wouldn't be able to get papers, unless your "Shiloh" dogs still have their AKC papers (and then they would certainly be too old to breed since the ISSR took over all registrations in 1991), OR you could LIE and CLAIM that they are "Shiloh Shepherds™" so that you can sell them for a lot more money, since there are several dishonest people who have set up "so called" (Bogus) "registries" out there that will give you OTX "papers" for such pups. Be sure to read about this Confusion very slowly!
You PROBABLY wouldn't be able to get papers????????? WTF? what on earth are you telling people???? Just breed various GSD-like dogs and call them whatever you want to???????
What a stupid website. I don't even care to go further than this gibberish.
Oh dear god. I looked further and it's unbelievable crap in every sentence.
"If I purchase a non-ISSR puppy that consists of a cross between an unregistrable "shiloh" and a GSD, what can I call it?"
DUH! A mutt! But Tina says,
You could call the progeny King Shepherds (a rare breed listed with ARBA) IF they let you, OR you could call them long haired GSD's ... although you probably wouldn't be able to get papers, unless your "Shiloh" dogs still have their AKC papers (and then they would certainly be too old to breed since the ISSR took over all registrations in 1991), OR you could LIE and CLAIM that they are "Shiloh Shepherds™" so that you can sell them for a lot more money, since there are several dishonest people who have set up "so called" (Bogus) "registries" out there that will give you OTX "papers" for such pups. Be sure to read about this Confusion very slowly!
You PROBABLY wouldn't be able to get papers????????? WTF? what on earth are you telling people???? Just breed various GSD-like dogs and call them whatever you want to???????
What a stupid website. I don't even care to go further than this gibberish.
Oh dear god. I looked further and it's unbelievable crap in every sentence.
by VomMarischal on 30 May 2010 - 00:05
Am I the only one who thinks this is hilarious? She doesn't just make up breeds, she makes up WORDS.
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Interesting articles submitted by the Shiloh Shepherd™ Breed Founder, Tina Barber! |
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| Broken Hearted Breed Founder (New 10/06) Another in a continuing series of articles by the Shiloh Shepherd™breed founder as she surveys what theoxymudas are doing to her breed. |
Puppy Producers: What Are They? From what kind of breeder are you getting your new puppy? (new April 2004) |
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| Health Survey 2000 (loaded with updates and charts fully documenting survey results on all ISSR Shiloh Shepherds.) Be sure to visit ourGenetic Task Force site for ongoing survey. | Confused about Registries? Investigate the facts! **Fully updated** by Mystere on 30 May 2010 - 00:05 There are three different shiloh registries, and, as happens with cults and religious denominations, each considers itself "the one true path." :-) Again, it is a "family "issue to be resolved by the shiloh people among themselves. Good luck with that. Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top | |
