Definition of Civil Drive for Police/P. Protection Dogs - Page 2

Let's face it...All of our dogs are started off in Training in the same manner...Where they go from there is basically up to what the dog's temperament will allow...Usually we use a dog and continue their training in what they do the best...
Also basically a dog that will associate with a civilian in any manner needed is considered to be CIVIL...
In the Dog World there's a difference in a dog being Social and a dog being Civil...But basically in definition they mean pretty much the same thing....
In the Dog World the association of the word CIVIL is to define a dog that will associate with a person in a way different without any outside help...such as equipment or too much aggitation...
What I'd like to ask is what do you think a CIVIL dog's temperament comes from...I mean which drive do you think this action is coming from?

~Bob~

P.S. I think discussion of the meaning of dog terms is very valuable because as we can see everyone has a different meaning...
You can't talk about anything until you understand what your talking about...Everyone must be on the same page...

So GSDdude, two different opinions have been stated here, which do you agree with??  If you agree with the Captain Sparrow, then crumble my opinion up and toss it.  Isn't that what forums are about?  Open discussion of ideas?  For every Pro, there is a Con, for every Yin there is a Yang, one man's ceiling is another man's floor, etc. etc.  If there was only one way of doing things, we'd all be like you.  But alas, there isn't,,,,,,so we're not.

OK:  this discussion on "civil" drives if great;  so what would you look for when picking a puppy or grading a litter of say 8 week old puppies if you WANT civil drive in a puppy.  Can you tell that drive in a puppy that  young or say even a dog up to a year old if that has not been trained or developed?

stormfront,i think is an exception to the rule and so is mike.i think given time he could make a billy goat bite.i do not believe that many sportdogs bite for real as i have seen several after the bark and hold take after a sleeve when it is tossed by the decoy.they on the most part as i understand fixated on the sleeve or other objects.ppd dogs on the other hand .i think and have been told most ppd dogs could give a rats abouty the sleeve they want the man.mikes cutter works as a police dog and sch.there is a difference though as a majority.

Interesting conversation.....I'm learning a lot.

Answer to to Phils question earlier, that was Not me working/decoying my wifes dog. While we have to decoy the dogs used in movies ourselves it is generally never a good idea to Decoy your own dog.

I agree with Slamdunc but would like to add...
 
No doubt natural civil drive is much easier to work with in PPD or PSD in terms of transitioning from the basics of foundation to civil aggression.   But I don't believe natural/genetic civil drive it is an absolute necessary qualification for PPD/PSD. 

If a dog lacks civil drive (high prey dog)....I believe you can create civility or increase civil drive (within reason and depending on the dog) through training (ie man work-layering equipment).  If you can get a high prey dog with low natural civil drive to learn the man is the ultimate prey object...he can work in prey without needing to see or bite equipment (prey objects) and have a great deal of forewardness and aggression in his work.  It will take more work than a dog with natural civil drive but it can be done.

From my experience doing this....the dogs with stronger defense and natural civil drive early stages of bitework progression was slower...confidence and grip took work.  When it was time to introduce the hidden sleeve/philly wrap these dogs actually bit better than they did on equipment.  The prey dog was easy in the early stages of bitework, confidence and grips were spot on...transitioning him to a hidden sleeve/philly wrap took work...in the end it all evened out as far as progress.

And with regards to what pirates lair said about the ability of the K9 to focus on and engage a passive decoy without equipment, I agree... but as slamdunc stated which is important... "either on command on a passive person or naturally on a threatening subject". 
I believe either dog (natural civil drive or learned civility) would need a command or verbal indicator (ie police "call out") to indicate to the K9 there is a "target/threat" present specifically in passive  assailant situations (or when a suspect is not outwardly "suspicious")...unless the dog has been conditioned to activate aggression on his own in recognized scenario's where there are passive people (ie repitition of crowd's & crowd control). 

If a dog lights up on a passive person for no reason and without a handler command or verbal indication I'd call that inappropriate aggression...and no matter what venue should not be acceptable IMO.

GSDfan

Thanks for pointing out - If a dog lights up on a passive person for no reason and without a handler command or verbal indication I'd call that inappropriate aggression...and no matter what venue should not be acceptable.

I agree, I did not explain that when I said -  Civil Drive is the ability of a K9 to focus on, and engage a decoy/assailant, without agitation or stimulation from the Decoy/assailant - I should have been more specific and added what you said. Suspicion to the K9 can be as simple as the Decoy maintaining eye contact with the K9.

I'm not used to describing a "passive person" in these types of discussions because like others, I make the mistake of assuming people already know that aggression on a passive person by the K9 is unacceptable.

I realize I opened this can of worms, I may have made a mistake when I said "Civil Drive".  I think Civil behavior or training may be a better way of describing what we are discussing??

Very good, no problem.  Yes I thought the term civil "drive" was rather unconventional but I knew what you meant and just went with the flow lol.

Civil drive can be, and should be broken down into different aggression groups ie: Civil, Social... Defense can even be broken down, including self preservation. It all comes down to reading your dog. I had this explained to me once using a pie chart... It was amazing the things I learned that day.