Definition of Civil Drive for Police/P. Protection Dogs - Page 5

prager wrote
Conclusion:
If the dog is civil or not is a learned behavior. Ability of different dogs to learn such behavior is inherited.

so you say any untrained green dog with inherited civil behaviour , will not attack a man that threathens him , unless he is first  learned to do so


because thats what Im  still reading in your post l after you already changed it three times already

Duke, I think the underlying principles which Hans is explaining are the old nature vs nurture (correct me if I am wrong). Animals and humans are born with certain genetic traits= potentials. Some of these are physiologically driven, ie: reflexes, hunger, and safety. Some of these abilities are present at birth, but not accessed or developed until a need arises. For instance, if there is no food readily available, an animal will be forced to hunt and kill due to survival instincts. Other potential traits, gifts in a sense are there, genetically programmed, but require learning- nurture to develop. The better the understanding of this by the trainer/nurturer, the better the learned response. It requires a combination of both the nature or basic temperament and learned response with consistent reinforcement. Some dogs (and people) are born with a greater propensity to perform certain actions based on inteligence and temperament. Others seem to lack certain a abilities from the get go....the class clown. They lack the "give-a-shit" factor and will never develop certain abilities to work or protect. It is not in their nature. Some require the nurture by a trainer to demonstrated the inherited traits. A few are more natural, they get it easily. In the military, we called them WETSU, which is an an acronym for We Eat This Shit Up!

davren , thats the difficulty with internet , I see wath he writes , not what he thinks or means
if he writes that a dog being civil is learned behaviour , I think he means that a dog being civil is learned behaviour , and if I respectfully disagree with that , I write that I disagree with tat

sure I understand that in training you can choose too work on civil or prey , but it has to be there too be worked with ,
thanks anyway for  your clear comment

I'm a still little confused about the term "civil"  Having read Han's and PiratesLairs in the beginning of this thread I concluded that it has to do with training i.e. uniform/ equipment vs plain clothes and is a learned behaviour.  But Duke1965 brought up an interesting example which he states:  "so you (Hans) say any untrained green dog with inherited civil behaviour , will not attack a man that threathens him , unless he is first learned to do so?"  which I also agree with his line of questioning too.

I have described my dog as having a civil edge.  She had done very little protection work training, 4.5 months in total and she is 3.5 years old.  She is my first GSD and I am learning much from her especially as regards to her temperament and my handling skills.

Here's an example,  she was under a year old and we were in a park.  A group of teenagers were walking towards me and playing rough with each other; pushing and shoving then one lad did a flying kick at his mate.  By then they were about 10 feet away from me.  My dog sniffing the ground at the time was startled by the noise and charged.  Immediately the lad took notice of my dog and ran.  I was not prepared or rather had no idea that this would happen.  I screamed "No" to my dog and tried to called her back.  She carried on the chase.  I resorted to screaming at the lad to "Stop" and when he did, so did my dog.  She stood sniffing him and I managed to put the least on.  All I did was apologise to the boy and in exchange I got a mouthful of swearing.

I like to know if my example is right to describe my dog as having a civil edge.  She is aloof with strangers, no problems with children.  However a bit dominant with other dogs and quite possessive.

One thing I noticed about my dog, if you are relaxed she is fine.  If tense or acting suspiciously, she seem more alert.  So when I greet people I never met before in the park, I use my nice tone of voice alot.

This is how I took it (correct me if I'm wrong)....civil behavior, in terms of a dog taught protection.  Civil aggression is hard wired, civil behavior is learned- requires nurturing. For ex. an adult dog on a backtie, first toss of a bite pillow.  A dog with stronger defense than prey will bark at you not the prey object. If you give that dog a civil bite in that moment, will he bite?...probably.  Will he bite well? No.  Will he have confidence, commitment, forwardness? No

The dog learns civil behavior either through repitiition (training in defense- which I don't like) or through getting the dog to work in prey and revisiting civil later (going back to civil will be easy for said dog).

IMO if you agree or not it comes down to whether or not you consider the act of biting or the entire action (in the state it is required for the work) "civil behavior". 

JMO

so very sorry do c. noneed to get your bowels in an uproar.did not mean to be insensitive but i have never been called a prick  before.i did at one time have a nick name, BIG D--K FROM MUD LICK!!!

Poseidon. Dog is inherently responding to danger. However what is danger? What in particular  is a danger is learned behavior.For example  your dog learned that if you are afraid than that is danger. That is a learned behavior gained from observing you. They can also learn what is abnormal  from what is  normal. Then if something is abnormal it then could be danger,..(.unless proven otherwise). Thus even if the dog have never seen you scared he/she knows how you look  if you are normal and not scared. Which is learned behavior from observing you.  
Another example. The dog in a hardware store is laying on the floor and does not care who comes and walks by or not. Than the store closes and if the same people who were uninterested to him during the day would come in the  middle of the night such dog  would then  turn aggressive. That discrimination between same situation during the day or night  is a learned behavior. The ability to bark and bite is inherited behavior.
 Thus what I am saying the dog knows ( or not) genetically how to respond to danger, like barking, biting, ... and so on. But where or against what or whom  or in what situation to apply it is learned behavior.
Or in prey drive:
Wolf pup learns to hunt bugs, lizards, rabbit, dear in that order of difficulty. Your pup on the other hand learns to chase instead of a bug burlap and then sleeve , body suite ... All that is learned behavior. Inherited is the drive in this case prey drive which is triggered by the motion. Shaking of the head is pray kill instinct inherited in all higher animals. Even cow will shake head in prey kill style if electrodes stimulate proper part of the brain, so will lizard, dog, bear, shark or human.  That is inherited behavior. What in particular they will chase and prey shake per se is learned behavior. Also you can determine what is learned and what is not learned by if you can unteach it. You can unteach the dog to chase running kids or passing cars. Thus to chase that particular target is  learned behavior. You can not change genetics by teaching. You can only develope it . You can change application of these genetics through learning.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

every dog will , by nature , make its own choice when to fight or flight , nothing learned behaviour about that  , Ive seen dozens of examples over the years of  100% green dogs and what choices they make  in  various situations

but Ill agree to disagree with you hans , no use in repeating points endlesly

I would however love to see some trainingvideos of you clarefeing your point of view

"The dog learns civil behavior either through repitiition (training in defense- which I don't like) or through getting the dog to work in prey and revisiting civil later (going back to civil will be easy for said dog)."

What happens to the dog especially PSD when it's put in a defensive position during a fight and has never been there before? Defence done correcty with the right dog is an important training tool. IMO a street dog without any D training isn't a complete dog and has holes in it's training that will be exposed sooner or later.

Duke:
every dog will , by nature , make its own choice when to fight or flight , nothing learned behavior about that , Ive seen dozens of examples over the years of 100% green dogs and what choices they make in various situations



Yes duke it will make such choice based on experience and inherited and acquired  courage. There is not such thing as "green dog" . Dog is gaining experiences from day one after the birth. That is learning.
 P.S> I have not learned how to download videos. I am a roadkill on Internet superhighway:)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com