stick hits continued - Page 2

You can see the first thread but recent posts don't show up which I why I started this thread as a continuation. I don't like friends being trashed or I would have let it go but this is unfair. What doesn't compute to me is that Sandra worked her dog for hours with Steve and had no problem and then she says he intentionally stepped on the dog's foot or otherwise caused the dog to come off the sleeve. Now, come on. That makes no sense. He put all that time in to make the dog fail? Please.... Anyone with an ounce of sense would see right through this falsehood and why is it always someone else's fault when your dog doesn't perform? Sounds like the blame game to me. Judy

What I want to know is, did any other dog come off the sleeve by a stick hit? Or by the dogs foot being stepped on? Dawn

You can see the first thread but recent posts don't show up which I why I started this thread as a continuation. I don't like friends being trashed or I would have let it go but this is unfair. What doesn't compute to me is that Sandra worked her dog for hours with Steve and had no problem and then she says he intentionally stepped on the dog's foot or otherwise caused the dog to come off the sleeve. Now, come on. That makes no sense. He put all that time in to make the dog fail? Please.... Anyone with an ounce of sense would see right through this falsehood and why is it always someone else's fault when your dog doesn't perform? Sounds like the blame game to me. Judy

I was wondering about the timing of this also If your dog was injured I'm sure you must have taken him to a vet to have him checked and you would then have medical reports and bills to substantiate your claim I'm also sure that there must have been a video of the WDA event you have spoken of to substantiate your allusions. Why would someone wait almost a year to start trashing someone...maybe the owner has the same nerve issues as the dog I don't know Sandra but I do know Cindi Peterson and Denise both are honest people and have no reason to defend Steve House other than they both know he would not intentionally harm any dog. Sandra must not know Cindi very well because if she did she would know that she has been involved with working dogs from way back but Show dogs pay the bills and even skinny Cindi likes to eat. Steve is an excellent training and trial helper but even the best will step on a foot sometimes thats why your dog is trained so that when that happens they bite harder instead of Woosing out Who would want a dog that cries and runs away in a fight to breed to that's why the attack on the handler is there! to prove courage too many dogs get passed that truly aren't worthy!

There is something going wrong with this board. I just made a detailed post on this topic, but it didn't upload. So I will try again, because I believe this is important. Enough so that I will double my time to communicate. I personally observed this Breed Survey. Right there from the sidelines. Since rules are being discussed regarding stick hits (which IMO, is laughable since the issue on the field had nothing to do with stick hits) may I ask another rules based question? When a dog/handler team is on the protection field for the breed survey test, what are the rules about other people coming onto the field? From what I understand, that is against the rules. In this specific situation, stick hits were not the issue. The helper stepped on the dogs foot, and admitted that readily to both the judge and the handler. During this discourse, a woman (Sandra I presume??) came running and screaming onto the field. I think Sandras dog probably WOULD have re-engaged, if he had been left on the field to his own devices. That's what Steve House thought, and apparently that's what the judge thought. Sandra, this judge did you a HUGE FAVOR. This judge seemed to understand human failings, and was ONLY interested in giving YOUR dog a fair evaluation - regardless of handler mistakes, and your hystrionics on the field. You should be sending Steve House a Thank You note - not dissing him. If someone else actually SAW this event, and thinks there were stick hit problems, I would love to hear/read about it. I was there. I watched the event. I watched Sandra's dog/handler. I don't think Sandra is fairly representing the facts. DTW

Boy Sandra you must have been blind the whole time your dog was on the field.Even when you went running out on the field. You are soooo wrong on this issue and you are making a bigger hole for yourself, pretty soon you won't be able to get out. The judge probaly(I say probaly because I was not on the field but on the sidelines) wanted the dog to pass his breed survey so he made it a hell of alot easier for this to be possible. If a video was taken your dog would have had his kkl taken away, and because of your running on the field like a crazy woman.So if I were you I would leave this alone an dbe happy with what you got. I hope yoor dog got kkl for life, I would hate for another helper to be accused and bashed because your dog failed.

I am posting this for a freind: _____________________________________________________ Hi, my name is Kathy Blank. I have been trying desperately to respond to this thread…all day. For some reason, my responses have not been posted…and each one gets longer after reading other people’s comments. So I’ve decided to write what I have to say and have somebody else post it for me. I was there. I have been involved in Schutzhund since 1990, have handled a large number of dogs for protection training and was recently certified as a club helper. I say these things to show that although there is plenty more to learn, I am not a novice. cont. on next post

continued... Sandra, we ALL gave freely of our time and experience to help you and your husband on Friday before the breed survey. I don’t know what your experience is or how long you’ve been involved in Schutzhund, but I do know that when the two of you arrived, you had absolutely no clue what you were doing…you were totally unprepared. The dog might have been SchH3, but neither of you even knew what the bitework routine consisted of. Why didn’t you research that? Anyway, whether Steve gave the dog 2 bites or 20 bites in 1 session or 10 sessions, he did what he could to help your husband. Several of us got involved to help. From showing him how to handle the leash to how far he had to heel. Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, you were sitting on the sidelines trying to tell him what to do. In any event, you stated in one of your posts that you didn’t like the work on Friday. Well, my first thought is, why didn’t you pull your dog? My second thought is, what in God’s name qualified you to make that judgement??? Saturday at the breed survey, Cindy was more or less on the sidelines directing dogs and handlers. I was doing what I could to help, so I was pretty up close to everything. What I recall most, is that when your dog yelped, whether from the stick hit or getting his foot stepped on, he came off the sleeve and you started onto the field, the whole time yelling at Steve that he’d hurt your dog. I saw Steve step on your dog’s foot. Did it coincide with the stick hit? Pretty darn close, in my mind’s eye. Which made him come off the sleeve? I guess, in reality, I really don’t know…but neither do you. However, I’d like to ask you, what credentials or experience do you have to make the determination that the stick hits were too hard? Had you ever even witnessed a breed survey or schutzhund trial prior to that day? Judging by your level of preparation, I’d guess not. Or was it the fact that you heard the stick hits? Hearing stick hits is commonplace, it doesn’t mean that they were too hard. Or do you simply think they were too hard because he came off the sleeve? When a show dog comes off the sleeve because of stick hits, their owners never go screaming on the field about their dogs being hit. It would be un-sportsmanlike, a concept of which you obviously have no clue. After being ushered off the field, you continued to behave in an extremely un-sportsmanlike manner, making very loud, inflammatory statements about Steve. Frankly, you should have been removed from the trial. You also stated that Steve hit the dog at a point when he was not even driving the dog. There, I have to disagree with you. I saw it. It didn’t happen that way. Your experienced eye must have been mistaken. With the exception of stepping on your dog’s foot, Steve’s work was exemplary. Besides, your dog lifted and held his foot off the ground. That behavior is consistent with just having had it stepped on, it is NOT consistent with being hit too hard with a stick. Remember, stick hits (whether too hard or not) are given across the withers, which have nothing to do with his foot. Oh, and by the way, to answer the question that somebody asked several times, no, no other dog came off the sleeve, and yes, Sandra’s was the only dog whose foot Steve stepped on. cont. on next post

Continued... Sandra, to suggest that Cindy would be responsible for a “cover-up” is absolutely ludicrous, and frankly tends to make you sound like a nut. Cindy is smart, ethical and a good dog trainer. She saw what happened. She understands dogs and dog work. She wouldn’t have been threatened by anything you said or did. Knowing her and Steve’s reputations, I doubt the upper echelon of the WDA ever even contacted her about your complaint. Unfortunately for you, your complaints tend to sound like sour grapes. I think you need to suck it up and take a look at your dog’s training, handling and genetic makeup…or just accept that he had a bad day…once or twice. I think you also mentioned that you have gotten emails from people who don’t like Steve’s helper work. Boy, I bet that empowered you. But how ‘bout this, for every ONE person that you can give me that DOESN’T like Steve or his helper work, I can give you SIX that DO!!! And I will bet cash that if you were to look in Steve’s helper book, you’d find that from 95 to 100% of the judges’ critiques of his work were “EXCELLENT WORK”. Yes, the judge gave your husband a second chance, but do you remember that at first YOU refused it??? We had to sit you down and explain to you that if you didn’t accept it, your dog would be DONE. Remember that??? And then you said you would, but only if someone other than Steve did the helper work!!! Aahh…showing off your expertise again, huh? Obviously, the judge refused your request. Only the judge knows why he didn’t allow Steve to give stick hits on the retry. Maybe he figured all your yelling and screaming stressed the dog to the point that he wouldn’t be able to perform…but that’s just speculation on my part. Maybe he was just a nice judge who saw something in your dog’s character that made him think he WOULDN’T perform again and didn’t want to have to be the one to revoke his KKL1. I don’t know. I do know that the judge DID NOT tell Steve that he hit the dog too hard…I spoke with the judge about it. I’m not sure where you are getting your facts from, because even if the judge had reprimanded Steve (which again, he didn’t), he certainly wouldn’t have told you about it. Why would he? To incite you further? To insult Steve? No. Good judges don’t do that. Something else I know . Helper work is not an exact science, nor is it an easy job. With each and every dog, there are so many variables, so many different things that can happen. That’s why WE train for such contingencies. Instead of trying to change the rules to fit your dog, why don’t you get out and train your dog so that the stress of “too hard” stick hits or the pain of getting his foot stepped on can be tolerated and handled. If he’s even an average working line dog, it shouldn’t be a problem. Instead of deciding that Steve does bad work based on two bites (well, four, I guess) that he gave your dog, perhaps you should spend some of your research time looking at all the dogs he has worked and helped to train whose handlers/owners are pleased with his work. Perhaps then you could devote your time to something more productive than besmirching someone’s good name…whether intentional, or not. Kathy Blank

stepping on feet is generally an accident unless of course you see the helper trying to stomp on a dog in which case he would have to look down to find the dogs feet and would probably stumble over his own and fall down and jamming seems to be a situation of a really fast dog (not too many of those) or a helper who is locked up hard and doesn't give when the dog strikes (generally not a Macho move)but one of lousy timing and basic catching skills Are there helpers who are aholes and want to prove they are tough guys Yea but the one we are discussing doesn't need a dog to prove he can be a tough guy or an ahole He likes the dogs its the people that bug him I think